Byond memberships and Money making ideas.

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May 30 2013, 8:26 am
In response to Marquesas
Marquesas wrote:
Super Saiyan X wrote:
Marquesas wrote:
most modern languages

Great we got that out of the way - DM isn't a modern language. As Tom said, it's legacy software, and they do not have the manpower or monies to 'modernize' it.

Which suggests it comes with the limitations of a legacy language. Which would undoubtedly mean that the limits do exist. Why do people suggest otherwise then if you agree it's legacy?

The limitations in BYOND aren't due to the fact that it's legacy software (outside of things like memory usage and CPU stuff - that's just outside of BYOND's scope completely); it's that you're either:
a. doing things completely wrong
b. doing things outside of the scope of the intended use
c. SS13 is written crappily
d. all of the above
May 30 2013, 8:28 am
In response to Marquesas
Marquesas wrote:
That is funny, I can't exactly see proper threading support, I'm not sure the developers even know what those are since the IDE locks up for 2 minutes when compiling 5 years old SS13 code. Oh, while we're at the IDE - most modern languages at least have an incremental compiler that doesn't redo everything from scratch every time you want to compile your project.

That would be nice, but that's really complaining about something the system was never designed to do in the first place. Speaking of compilation times, it seems to be MUCH faster on my larger projects than it was prior to this round of beta improvements.

Technically you're suggesting we should support a community that doesn't care about something that provides its singlehandedly largest userbase.

OK... Then tell me why I should care about a single game's community when that community is openly hostile to ALL other aspects of the community at large? Also, contrary to popular belief, having a lot of players doesn't automatically make a game better (see: every DBZ/Naruto rip). Or, put another way: Congratulations! You've joined the ranks of Zeta in terms of bragging rights. what an honor...

We have some truly incredible features in our game that could use some features from the BYOND developers.

I'd like to hear of one "truly incredible" feature you've implemented that hasn't already been done by someone else on BYOND.

Have you considered that there is a very large, virtually untapped, community here that is ready to cooperate with, and support, BYOND in exchange for moving forward instead of running around in circles?

Complaining about how BYOND is terrible accomplishes this, how exactly?

Yes, I'm sure most of those "serious" BYOND coders making anime games can't even fathom some of the concepts that we require, but then they are actually satisfied with how things are right now, so why would extending it hurt?

Maybe instead of complaining that BYOND should hold your hand and do things for you, you should use a little ingenuity and figure out how to do it yourself? just a thought...

Marquesas wrote:
Which suggests it comes with the limitations of a legacy language. Which would undoubtedly mean that the limits do exist. Why do people suggest otherwise then if you agree it's legacy?

If you understand the limitations, you can overcome them, or you can sit and whine as you seem fond of doing.

People who work on AMIGA emulators generally don't sit around complaining about what their hardware can't do; they try to push it to its limits and get satisfaction from doing so. The same applies to BYOND.
May 30 2013, 8:32 am
This thread was going well when Tom started talking and expressing things with the community (which is rare) and pretty interesting.

I feel for Tom, I also wish more people would appreciate things in life.

But right now.. Where's this thread going =)?
May 30 2013, 8:38 am
In response to Super Saiyan X
Super Saiyan X wrote:
Marquesas wrote:
Super Saiyan X wrote:
Marquesas wrote:
most modern languages

Great we got that out of the way - DM isn't a modern language. As Tom said, it's legacy software, and they do not have the manpower or monies to 'modernize' it.

Which suggests it comes with the limitations of a legacy language. Which would undoubtedly mean that the limits do exist. Why do people suggest otherwise then if you agree it's legacy?

The limitations in BYOND aren't due to the fact that it's legacy software (outside of things like memory usage and CPU stuff - that's just outside of BYOND's scope completely); it's that you're either:
a. doing things completely wrong
b. doing things outside of the scope of the intended use
c. SS13 is written crappily
d. all of the above

a) I am not completely sure what you mean by this if this is supposed to be distinct from both b) and c).
b) Clearly true. We are pushing the limitations of BYOND as hard as we can. It doesn't help that the intended scope of use is "below the computation complexity of an arbitrary MSPaint operation".
c) There is truth to this. We had some truly amateur coders - I cannot argue with that. Does this mean that we have very badly optimized bits of code? Yes. Does this mean that every module in the code is badly optimized? No. Our coders have been working hard lately on optimizing the costliest modules present in Goonstation (I cannot speak for the other stations as I am not completely aware of how they're coping other than it's at least as bad as for us). The reason this keeps popping up more and more often on the BYOND forums is exactly this - there is not only a limit to what BYOND is capable of, there is also a limit of how much we can optimize the system using whatever is provided to us and it's been proven over and over again that this limit is way off the mark.
All in all it's a mix of increasingly less expensive code showing little to no additional performance yield. We are talking here about a technical impossibility (a limit) on how much can we exactly optimize.
May 30 2013, 8:40 am
In response to Marquesas
Marquesas wrote:
Eternal_Memories wrote:
Tobba wrote:
You wouldent have to use any stupidity, its already provided rather well here

3) Don't troll. "Trolling" is posting with the intention of inciting a user or group, or otherwise getting a reaction that contributes nothing but negative energy to the discussion. This is probably the easiest way to bring down a good community.

Can somebody get rid of his comments? Space Station 13 Users have been complaining too much on this thread about BYOND's nonexistent limits.

That is funny, I can't exactly see proper threading support, I'm not sure the developers even know what those are since the IDE locks up for 2 minutes when compiling 5 years old SS13 code. Oh, while we're at the IDE - most modern languages at least have an incremental compiler that doesn't redo everything from scratch every time you want to compile your project. You say modern languages a lot, don't you? Tell me at least 2 engines which can do the same stuff BYOND does; and don't say Game Maker, because that's a piece of shit.

Technically you're suggesting we should support a community that doesn't care about something that provides its singlehandedly largest userbase. I'm sure your GAME ABOUT GOKU runs as smooth as a baby's ass because it features complex and interesting features such as pressing the right arrow to move a tile right (WOW!), or even more complicated, pressing the right arrow to move LEFT (OH MY!) Invalid point, I have not created a Dragon Ball Game, to be honest I only play a Dragon Ball Game on BYOND called Dragon Universe, which is much better than Space Station 13.. We have some truly incredible features in our game that could use some features from the BYOND developers You have nothing, you're a simple player, Space Station 13's Owner doesn't even know you, you're just a fan of it, nothing else. Have you considered that there is a very large, virtually untapped, community here that is ready to cooperate with, and support, BYOND in exchange for moving forward instead of running around in circles? Yes, I'm sure most of those "serious" BYOND coders making anime games can't even fathom some of the concepts that we require, but then they are actually satisfied with how things are right now, so why would extending it hurt? Anime Games have brought here many developers, some of them have bought BYOND Membership, some of them have even created their own original game. I haven't seen so far any user from Space Station 13 creating a great game or improving anything at all.

A little bit of background here. The problems are so bad that the SS13 community that is known to have considerable beefs and dislikes between the different builds, branches, actually stands united on the issues raised here. This is mostly unheard of along the lines of the Palestinians and Israelis homogenously uniting for a common goal.

May 30 2013, 8:59 am
In response to Gakumerasara
Gakumerasara wrote:
Marquesas wrote:
That is funny, I can't exactly see proper threading support, I'm not sure the developers even know what those are since the IDE locks up for 2 minutes when compiling 5 years old SS13 code. Oh, while we're at the IDE - most modern languages at least have an incremental compiler that doesn't redo everything from scratch every time you want to compile your project.

That would be nice, but that's really complaining about something the system was never designed to do in the first place. Speaking of compilation times, it seems to be MUCH faster on my larger projects than it was prior to this round of beta improvements.

Surely taking my words out of context is a valid way to reply to criticism. I was bringing up an example - this is one of features what would be nice to have but isn't crucial for moving forward. It's comfortable.

Technically you're suggesting we should support a community that doesn't care about something that provides its singlehandedly largest userbase.

OK... Then tell me why I should care about a single game's community when that community is openly hostile to ALL other aspects of the community at large? Also, contrary to popular belief, having a lot of players doesn't automatically make a game better (see: every DBZ/Naruto rip). Or, put another way: Congratulations! You've joined the ranks of Zeta in terms of bragging rights. what an honor...

We have some truly incredible features in our game that could use some features from the BYOND developers.

I'd like to hear of one "truly incredible" feature you've implemented that hasn't already been done by someone else on BYOND.

Let's get the most trivial one out of the way. I've yet to hear about a game on BYOND with at least roughly accurate atmosphere simulation.
Or in terms of gameplay. Most of the BYOND games are roleplay-heavy reproductions of your favourite anime. Nothing wrong with that, not suggesting there is anything wrong with that. Space Station 13 is an elaborate corporate espionage simulator in a sandbox environment where you're given freedom along the lines of Minecraft, Dwarf Fortress or Garry's Mod. Not drawing a comparison here (god, I should stop being civil and clarifying everything), all I'm suggesting is that it's fundamentally different from anything on BYOND. But I am not the one doubting you, if you indeed think we have fished features from games all over BYOND, please, play a few rounds of SS13, observe what the game can do, and then link us to a BYOND game that implements a feature and came out before that specific feature was implemented in the game (we version the games - we can get you the exact date of implementation of a feature), and we'll admit what horrible ripoffs we are.

We do not integrate well with the rest of the BYOND community. I will give you that. Let's get it out of the way - Goonstation is very anti-anime, and so is its playerbase. I can see that as the wall between your games and us. But what about the other servers? There are very popular servers that encourage you to be a furry, and embrace anime concepts to the level of creepy. Interestingly, the playerbase of these servers is also not interested in your games. I cannot help the feeling at this point that it's a matter of quality - and man, whatever you're producing just doesn't cut it.

Have you considered that there is a very large, virtually untapped, community here that is ready to cooperate with, and support, BYOND in exchange for moving forward instead of running around in circles?

Complaining about how BYOND is terrible accomplishes this, how exactly?

There is a fine line between complaining and suggesting. We're way past the suggestion line because our pleas aren't heard. I, for one, still consider this suggestion as I agree with most of the points brought up by others - you see it as complaining because you're terribly conservative about what BYOND should or could be.

It also doesn't help that we aren't the ones instigating the hostilities. Of course we are hostile in response to a hostile environment. Somehow bringing SS13 into a conversation flips a bit in all of you people and suddenly makes everything that person says sound like a bad idea. Here's a free hint: They're not, and you all could profit out of it in terms of game quality. You might just need to listen.

Yes, I'm sure most of those "serious" BYOND coders making anime games can't even fathom some of the concepts that we require, but then they are actually satisfied with how things are right now, so why would extending it hurt?

Maybe instead of complaining that BYOND should hold your hand and do things for you, you should use a little ingenuity and figure out how to do it yourself? just a thought...

We're talking about source level problems here. I wasn't aware that BYOND was open source.

Marquesas wrote:
Which suggests it comes with the limitations of a legacy language. Which would undoubtedly mean that the limits do exist. Why do people suggest otherwise then if you agree it's legacy?

If you understand the limitations, you can overcome them, or you can sit and whine as you seem fond of doing.

People who work on AMIGA emulators generally don't sit around complaining about what their hardware can't do; they try to push it to its limits and get satisfaction from doing so. The same applies to BYOND.

People who work on AMIGA emulators work in, I don't know, C++. I'm not aware of such limitations in C++.
May 30 2013, 9:11 am
In response to Eternal_Memories
Are you deliberately making it difficult to reply ugh.

I can't exactly see proper threading support, I'm not sure the developers even know what those are since the IDE locks up for 2 minutes when compiling 5 years old SS13 code. Oh, while we're at the IDE - most modern languages at least have an incremental compiler that doesn't redo everything from scratch every time you want to compile your project.
You say modern languages a lot, don't you? Tell me at least 2 engines which can do the same stuff BYOND does; and don't say Game Maker, because that's a piece of shit.

Well as it currently stands you're already better off by using libpng and a language of your choice. I'm not even going to begin to suggest Game Maker is any kind of good, but I will outright suggest that it might actually be better than BYOND as it currently stands provided one knows how to use it.

I'm sure your GAME ABOUT GOKU runs as smooth as a baby's ass because it features complex and interesting features such as pressing the right arrow to move a tile right (WOW!), or even more complicated, pressing the right arrow to move LEFT (OH MY!)
Invalid point, I have not created a Dragon Ball Game, to be honest I only play a Dragon Ball Game on BYOND called Dragon Universe, which is much better than Space Station 13.

Okay, so thanks for sharing that, you already convinced me I'm playing the wrong game with the one million reasons you just threw at me.
So basically you're arguing me without ever having developed a BYOND game. I'm sorry, I guess you're right. I didn't know I was getting into an argument with a certified expert.

We have some truly incredible features in our game that could use some features from the BYOND developers
You have nothing, you're a simple player, Space Station 13's Owner doesn't even know you, you're just a fan of it, nothing else.

Okay, I guess the fact that I don't own SS13 makes it downright invalid for me to suggest that some of the game's features are great.

Yes, I'm sure most of those "serious" BYOND coders making anime games can't even fathom some of the concepts that we require, but then they are actually satisfied with how things are right now, so why would extending it hurt?> Anime Games have brought here many developers, some of them have bought BYOND Membership, some of them have even created their own original game. I haven't seen so far any user from Space Station 13 creating a great game or improving anything at all.

Actually, the original SS13 has spawned quite a few branches of itself. Most servers feature an entirely different game altogether, each having a group that improves their own branch according to their vision. I expect your answer to this will be is that it's an invalid argument because it didn't spawn a new game on the pager.
May 30 2013, 9:34 am
Unless the owner of SS13 starts partnering with Tom and offering subscription options (rather doubtful for an open source project with a hostile anti-BYOND community), I don't think that it's a valid money making game for BYOND in any way regardless of how many hundreds of players it nets.

So this thread has gotten pretty far off topic.
May 30 2013, 9:35 am
In response to Marquesas
Marquesas wrote:
Surely taking my words out of context is a valid way to reply to criticism. I was bringing up an example - this is one of features what would be nice to have but isn't crucial for moving forward. It's comfortable.

I agree with you on it being both nice/ideal and also not crucial, but changing your tone after the fact doesn't mean what you said was taken out of context.

Let's get the most trivial one out of the way. I've yet to hear about a game on BYOND with at least roughly accurate atmosphere simulation.

That's a fine concept/feature, and it sounds great in theory.

Or in terms of gameplay. Most of the BYOND games are roleplay-heavy reproductions of your favourite anime. Nothing wrong with that, not suggesting there is anything wrong with that. Space Station 13 is an elaborate corporate espionage simulator in a sandbox environment where you're given freedom along the lines of Minecraft, Dwarf Fortress or Garry's Mod. Not drawing a comparison here (god, I should stop being civil and clarifying everything), all I'm suggesting is that it's fundamentally different from anything on BYOND. But I am not the one doubting you, if you indeed think we have fished features from games all over BYOND, please, play a few rounds of SS13, observe what the game can do, and then link us to a BYOND game that implements a feature and came out before that specific feature was implemented in the game (we version the games - we can get you the exact date of implementation of a feature), and we'll admit what horrible ripoffs we are.

I would say it has similarity to the various Chat/Build games, slasher/mystery types like Murder Mansion, and perhaps even the spy games that used to be hosted. But if the only other games you've played are anime rips, I can see why you might make blanket statements that all other games on BYOND suck.

There is nothing wrong with having features in common with other games, but when people post in this thread that all other games suck, and that SS13 is somehow better despite it sharing most of its features with other games, excuse me if I remain skeptical. You were the one who cited the amazing features, so I'll leave it to you to list them. Given the community, I have no desire to play SS13, regardless of how amazing it might have become since i last played it.

We do not integrate well with the rest of the BYOND community. I will give you that. Let's get it out of the way - Goonstation is very anti-anime, and so is its playerbase. I can see that as the wall between your games and us. But what about the other servers? There are very popular servers that encourage you to be a furry, and embrace anime concepts to the level of creepy. Interestingly, the playerbase of these servers is also not interested in your games. I cannot help the feeling at this point that it's a matter of quality - and man, whatever you're producing just doesn't cut it.

It's amazing really, how you think everyone on BYOND who isn't a goon likes anime or the rips that it spawned 10+ years ago. I'd also be curious as to how many of your players have actually tried games that weren't anime rips, or any other games - at all.

And no, I'm pretty sure you've already stated that quantity, not quality, is all the SS13 community cares about.

There is a fine line between complaining and suggesting. We're way past the suggestion line because our pleas aren't heard. I, for one, still consider this suggestion as I agree with most of the points brought up by others - you see it as complaining because you're terribly conservative about what BYOND should or could be.

Maybe you've never done any development work yourself, but typically people have a list of things they want to accomplish, with a priority given to everything on that list - cost vs benefit and the like. When you suggest things that would require a MASSIVE amount of work to implement, it really should be no surprise when your suggestion gets pushed to the back of the line (if added at all) and given the lowest priority.

Or maybe I see it as complaining because I push BYOND to what people think are its limits, and rather than complaining about those limits, I optimize and then push it further.

It also doesn't help that we aren't the ones instigating the hostilities. Of course we are hostile in response to a hostile environment. Somehow bringing SS13 into a conversation flips a bit in all of you people and suddenly makes everything that person says sound like a bad idea. Here's a free hint: They're not, and you all could profit out of it in terms of game quality. You might just need to listen.

Like I said, I agree with some of your suggestions - just not the way you and others have presented them. Maybe if you understood the state of BYOND, that development on the project is virtually finished, you'd see that 'suggestions' of this sort help no one.

Maybe instead of complaining that BYOND should hold your hand and do things for you, you should use a little ingenuity and figure out how to do it yourself? just a thought...

We're talking about source level problems here. I wasn't aware that BYOND was open source.

You can optimize your own code to work within the constraints. Give it a shot; you might learn something.

People who work on AMIGA emulators work in, I don't know, C++. I'm not aware of such limitations in C++.

People who work on AMIGA have, I don't know, severe memory limitations - and have to learn how to work within those limitations.
May 30 2013, 9:40 am
I hopped on the /vg/ thread for "Spessmen Station 13" and near the end you can see all the comments about people looking for ad-free versions of the BYOND pager. That and people discussing why their remake will be better.

But I don't think Tom would be able to partner up with the SS13 founder, or founders, because I don't think they show up here anymore. I figure they should just follow what Tom suggested, keep trying to make it on a new platform that can handle it a lot better than BYOND. Unless "called upon", the SS13 fan base already hides itself away from the forums and other games. Their send-off has just been something that's already "in-progress".

It's forum talks like these that make me wish BYOND could stumble upon a few thousand-hundred thousand dollars and be able to make major updates.

I know Tom has tried everything, I wonder what his experience with business loans.
May 30 2013, 9:43 am
Why do you SS13 people seem to think that the people responding to you on this thread like anime and make anime games? Nobody on this entire thread does that, and the majority of the contributing members of the BYOND community don't.
May 30 2013, 10:04 am
In response to EnigmaticGallivanter
EnigmaticGallivanter wrote:
But I don't think Tom would be able to partner up with the SS13 founder, or founders, because I don't think they show up here anymore. I figure they should just follow what Tom suggested, keep trying to make it on a new platform that can handle it a lot better than BYOND.

As far as I know, Exadv1 is still somewhat active. He was on Chatters or SimpleChat a few months back, looking for advice on something.
May 30 2013, 10:18 am
Just a reminder here, This thread is to help byond make money, regardless of your opinion on the engine, you use it and have been using it and so we should stop the foolishness and help Tom and Byond to survive.

And to all the SS13 people complaining, I'd like to see you do better than Tom.

And if you crack wise and say you can, then go do it and stop wasting your time and ours, we need to be serious here and work toward a better byond with positive influence and ideas, Maybe you hate byond, but I love it and so do many others and alot of devotion has been put into this community and it's games and some people don't want to see this project die.

Again, This thread is not for discussing SS13 or Byonds Limits, It is for raising money for Byond regardless of your opinion.

And on the topic of "limits"

No byond cannot make black ops or Final Fantasy 13 but it wasn't intended for all that, this engine is made to show people they can build a game and have fun doing it, Yes its going to be limited compared to other engines! But it also is much better than other engines as well!

Overall If you wanna complain and troll do it elsewhere, and as for the loyal members of byond, don't feed the trolls and lets work toward fixing byond's situation.

May 30 2013, 11:50 am
In response to Bloodocean7
Why are there a ton of websites hosting a ton of Flash games? Something is preventing this community from developing that many little games. What could it be?
May 30 2013, 2:19 pm
As one of the current project leads for SS13 I am finding all this 'byond vs. ss13' chat to be really incredibly dumb.

I see Byond as being a pretty effective homebrew game platform. From my experiences with it, I do not personally think it can compete on a professional enough level to employ fulltime coders or attract major cash-cow games, and when I say this, I do not mean it as an insult to Tom in any way.

I do think you might benefit from just embracing Byond's role as a homebrew game plaform and try finding some more volunteer coders who just want to help out and tackle some problems here and there.

Also a note for the thread in general - there is a pretty big difference between 'trolling' and harsh critique. Critique and honest feedback are critical to the ongoing health of any project, sucking up and saying 'this system is perfect, eff da haters' doesn't help anything. I would like it though if some of our dudes could try to keep the critique a bit more constructive though, this is getting hella embarrassing.


May 30 2013, 2:22 pm
In response to Kaiochao
Kaiochao wrote:
Why are there a ton of websites hosting a ton of Flash games? Something is preventing this community from developing that many little games. What could it be?

Flash was developed by a massive corporation that has spent enormous amounts of money on both advertising and development. It takes a lot of work to reach the levels of market saturation they've achieved.

How many browsers come with BYOND packaged? It's really not a useful comparison.
May 30 2013, 2:29 pm
In response to Dr. Cogwerks
Dr. Cogwerks wrote:
As one of the current project leads for SS13 I am finding all this 'byond vs. ss13' chat to be really incredibly dumb.

I see Byond as being a pretty effective homebrew game platform. From my experiences with it, I do not personally think it can compete on a professional enough level to employ fulltime coders or attract major cash-cow games, and when I say this, I do not mean it as an insult to Tom in any way.

I do think you might benefit from just embracing Byond's role as a homebrew game plaform and try finding some more volunteer coders who just want to help out and tackle some problems here and there.

Also a note for the thread in general - there is a pretty big difference between 'trolling' and harsh critique. Critique and honest feedback are critical to the ongoing health of any project, sucking up and saying 'this system is perfect, eff da haters' doesn't help anything. I would like it though if some of our dudes could try to keep the critique a bit more constructive though, this is getting hella embarrassing.

I agree with both of your points here. Although I do believe BYOND can produce a hit game that could bring us in side-revenue either through sharing or a player boost. And I say this because I've seen what a game like NEStalgia can bring in with a bit of marketing hype. The fact is that plenty of people are willing to pay $5/month or $20/year for a BYOND game. It's a longshot but it can and does happen, and more than a few users have made a nontrivial income from it.

Unfortunately, not as many seem willing to pay $20/year for BYOND itself :)
May 30 2013, 2:37 pm
In response to Tom
Tom wrote:
...Unfortunately, not as many seem willing to pay $20/year for BYOND itself :)

Have you considered putting a donation link on the pager?
May 30 2013, 2:39 pm
Yes! Teka123 actually has been getting on me about that. I've been assuming all this time that people who wanted to donate would do so through Membership (since you can donate extra there) but I may be wrong about it, and it shouldn't hurt to have it upfront anyway. So that'll go in soon.
May 30 2013, 2:40 pm
In response to Tom
And possibly somewhere around on the main website?
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