Well, I've already implemented this myself in a project that may take years to see the light of day, due to the lack of quality art(or art in general).
The idea here is to make a mob that scales with the player's level. Now this came about as a idea for my party and quest system(JRPG, surprised?). How I've implemented it is to prevent players of a higher level from coming in and pushing through the boss battles(which would presumably be in a generated room, like DCUO, if you've played that) for the lower-level players. When the higher-level player attacks the mob, it automatically scales it's own level and stats up to that player's level. Of course, it's simple to offset the balance(say you want it to be -2 or +5 in relation to the enemy mob's level). SO, with reflection on my system, I think it works really well. I've tested it many times and seems to work perfectly.
Now then, why isn't this a more common practice? I often see BYOND games with some form of a party system in place, scaling enemies isn't a new idea, and it fits perfectly with most, if not all, party systems. Even if you just scale the mobs pre-combat, when the party enters the area.
Zaoshi wrote:
I think scaling exp/loot reward is a better idea. I agree, this is what I've always had in mind. | |
That's why you have a reset ready.
mob/proc Is just a quick mock-up I made some time back, I plan on changing it later, when I get it ready for release. | |
Scaling everything with the player's level tends to screw with their sense of progression. If everything will always be moderately difficult forever, it just feels like you aren't getting any stronger.
I feel that a more appropriate way of handling this is either limiting the ability for those high level players to join with lower level players, or by dropping them down to the lower players' range. Either one would leave the feeling of character growth intact while preventing end-game players from steamrolling bosses for the newbies. | |
Does no one understand the point being made here? No? OK. I guess I wont post much more here, since everything I post goes without being understood.
It's not gonna skew player progression, because you can put limits on these things, it's called min() and max(). Not only that, I only have this intended for bosses in dungeons, not just every monster that's in the game. The monster only scales ONCE it's hit by a higher-level-than-itself-mob, so if 'sense of progression' is a problem, maybe they shouldn't be having someone of such a high level there with them, skewing their sense of progression because it's easy to just have the high-level player do it all. On top of that, the dungeons are going to be a part of the story, as should most things in the game. Either being side-story or main-story. Therefore the placement of a too high a level character in that dungeon would probably skew the progression more. Even just a few levels higher. And I'm not gonna scale at the start of a dungeon, like I've known some games to do, because of the leaving/afk bit. I don't want one D-Bag to be able to say 'Yeah, I'll help.' only to sit there and watch the lower levels struggle with the battles, because it's funny. Though that is funny, it ruins the game a bit for those lower-leveled players. | |
I think XP scaling in general is a good idea just to prevent farming. Perhaps the enemy's XP - your level is how much you get, and if you're the same level or higher, you earn rand(1,5) XP.
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The EXP system I have in mind involves splitting exp per party member then scaling their cut of exp based on the level of your character and the level of the monster(+10 each level above you it is, -10 per level above it you are, min of 1). Then have the mobs that scale award exp based from it's initial level. Of course, this would also come into play that, once the monster is so far ahead, you receive a lot less exp.
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It's an interesting concept, it's different I woul like to see it in action before I actually make an opinion of it.
It does sound like it'll work I was worried about higher levels power leveling the lower players but the post above makes it sound perfect. | |
Sounds like a bad idea in my opinion. Takes me back to the oblivion days where everything scaled with you, and you never felt powerful. Having the first giant rat boss kick your ass at max level is not fun, and takes away the entire point of progression.
It doesnt matter if this only applies to storyline dungeons. A system like this takes away some freedom from the players, not only to help their friends but to discourage them from repeating content. Its up to you in the end, just my thoughts. | |
Depends on how harshly it's done, A boss you have never fought should always be more powerful than you IMO but not by much, just enough to make it a challenge. although bosses should always have level guides.
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Thanks for the feedback. I'm set on using this myself, it keeps enemies fresh when you go through again. This method also helps when I'm planning on making new-game+ advantages. I'll probably have it so mobs will scale based on your play through number and your level. ie: a small slime will be level one on the first play through, no matter your level. In the second play through, it'll scale to 5-under your level, in the third it'll be your level, and fourth would make it 5-above.
I think this keeps the game from getting too boring of combat. Hell, I can't really do separate mob levels per player in the same area, but I could make it so the mob scales back and forth between levels as it's attacked/attacking, though that'd ruin the punishment part of it for trying to have higher-leveled players help you breeze through the dungeons. | |
The inherent flaw with this system is the progression of Boss battles themselves. Even if Low level bosses are scaled up to higher level players, they still have the same abilities. Most low level bosses are all "Tank'n'spank," meaning one person draws attention and the other three blast him. And trying to balance it by giving bosses more required strategy isn't a good solution either, because any low level players who go through the dungeon will find the fight too technical and challenging for their skill level.
For this next part, let's play a game. Every time I mention World of Warcraft(WoW), Blizzard Inc., MMO Game Mechanics, or any other MMO in general, take a drink of whatever you have right now. In WoW(Take a Drink), you have a normal mode and a heroic mode for many dungeons. Normal mode is used for low level players(Take a Drink) and heroic mode for high level players(Take a Drink) who want to run the same dungeon. Blizzard(Take a Drink) has done this because many players enjoy some of the older dungeons. It gives players a sense of familiarity that other MMO's(Take a Drink) can't supply without turning it into a grind-fest(Take a Drink). I think the problem is that you just don't want to take the time to create new, exciting dungeons for your end-game players to enjoy. I know BYOND isn't a super strong platform, but many people do underestimate what it's capable of. | |
[EDIT] Well, upon attempting to copy/paste what was in this input and losing over half this comment, I'm going to sum up what I had before this: You have a obsession with WoW, hence you bring it up in EVERY topic you discuss mechanics in, for many months now. You, for some reason, think WoW is the perfect game and every game should draw similarities from it. You have NO understanding of anything I've posted. I don't intend on adding any less content with or without the feature, this feature is meant to PUNISH players who try to ABUSE the game by having HIGHER-THAN-INTENDED leveled players help them in areas that are SUITED FOR MOBS OF THE FIRST PLAYER'S LEVEL.[END EDIT]
Now then, I think the problem here is that you completely lack the understanding of what I've been saying with this topic the entire time and need to get over this fan-boy obsession with WoW and Blizzard. A lot of the people at Blizzard are f***ing idiots, hence why I get spam emails daily from whomever stole their emails, about accounts to games I've never played or owned. Where exactly did I mention the BYOND engine or it's capabilities? Also, I'd truly love to know where you picked up that idiotic idea that because I want to scale some mobs or some bosses in SOME areas, that I am going to produce less of those areas and shorten the story to just those few areas? | |
WoW that escalated quickly.
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Alright, fair enough. I can't tell you how to make your games. For months now, all you've ever done on these forums is bitch and cry about every little thing that people have to say. You can't handle critique, and you certainly unload your shit when you feel like your "game development" skills are being put into question.
This is instantly apparent when you flip out because I mentioned the "limitations" of the engine. I'm fully aware that you never said anything about it, but it felt like it's something many developers have a hard time with. As for my "fan-boy obsession with World of Warcraft," yes, WoW is a phenomenal title, with good reason. Companies like Blizzard don't make competition-sweeping games consistently because their staff is retarded. If you think you can do it better, then you better start applying for a job as their lead director, because obviously you're the only person qualified for the position. If you can't suck up your pride and listen to other people who are giving you valid ideas, no matter where the source originates, then you're not going to get anywhere. So, have fun making your game. I hope it doesn't fall under in development or get washed out in it's beta release like so many others started by developers just like you. | |
I really enjoy "scaling" that doesn't involve simply increasing HP, damage, or the like. Two games that did this well in my opinion are Diablo (1 and 2), and Borderlands 2 (never played the first one so I dunno). These games had harder difficulty settings that were meant for playing through the game a second time with the same character. Not only were all the enemies given increased health and damage, they also tended to have more abilities or resistances, which made your choices about how to attack them more critical. In Borderlands 2's "true vault hunter" mode, you really had to make sure you had a variety of damage types at your disposal or else some enemies would be almost impossible to kill.
Now, this is definitely easier to implement in a single player or small-coop type of game. However I still think it could be done well in an MMO setting, perhaps if lower level players simply could not join in with people doing the harder mode, like the heroic dungeons SA mentioned. | |
Solomn Architect wrote:
Alright, fair enough. I can't tell you how to make your games. For months now, all you've ever done on these forums is bitch and cry about every little thing that people have to say. You can't handle critique, and you certainly unload your shit when you feel like your "game development" skills are being put into question. *grinch smile* I think the concept fits for certain games. I also played oblivion on it's easiest setting for a few of the reasons they mentioned. If say- the player has skills which differentiate their abilities aside from the base stats, then it's a great idea. But if it's based solely on a player's stats, then it would only serve to miss it's aim. Balanced correctly, it could be fun. As a slight alternative. Perhaps giving some level variation might work, perhaps two levels below and above the player. Also, if the game involves multiple people, you have to account for that- because a level 1 newb running into an enemy that was rared up to go at a level 53 player equals "wtf+rage quit" | |
I handle critique fine, I don't handle idiots whom can't understand what I'm explaining well.
Allow me to direct you to my above postings, where I thank two posters for their critique and explain I took it into consideration, but I would not be changing much. For months now I've had to put up with idiots whom don't know what they're doing, what they're talking about, or often both. Blizzard caught the eye of MANY people because of WoW, not all of those people are gonna fall off and not purchase the next game right away. If they changed CoD so much that all the twelve year old kids that play the current releases didn't like it, they'd probably still make a killing on sales until the next game. I know a LOT of people who're upset over Blizzard and Diablo III, swearing to never buy a Blizzard game again. These used to be avid WoW players- they even played Diablo III from launch to after the launch issues were supposedly fixed- and still were furious over issues that were presented. They soon quit, I'm not sure if they've yet to go back, though I'm sure half of them did for a short while, but they defiantly quit for awhile. I've been going back every month and adding something to the project I'm working on, it's not a very active project of mine. I wouldn't worry about it falling out of development, since I've stuck to it for about a year and have been working on it more and more lately, as I've been working with someone else to help them finish their game's updates, by developing stuff I would add to my own. Now then, unless you wanna yank it over Blizzard some more, I'm sure we're done. | |
It would be impossible for the lower-leveled mobs to get into the areas with the more difficult mobs, so I'm not worried about that much. My worry was in the higher leveled mobs coming into the lower leveled areas and rushing the low-levels through things. This is generally bad and doesn't help the low-levels learn or develop their skills with the game. If you take someone that's blasted through early-game because of someone of a higher level and put them in PvP with someone that went through it the intended, correct, way; they'll probably lose because they couldn't match the skills the other player developed in doing things themselves. Of course, I intend to make things harder in new game+s and the stats and abilities would be intended to scale with the mob. I'd likely set a variable for the newgame+ start level, to which all mobs you attack would scale up according to that starting level. I think the first Borderlands did something similar to what I just described, but it's been some time since I played. I'll likely end up with a level-sensitive AI, that'll scale the mob then use a different type of AI based off that mob's new level.
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I think scaling exp/loot reward is a better idea.