I do understand that people make mistakes. But I also understand that when people realize they've made a mistake, they fix it. Everyone banned as a result of Silk's mistake is still banned, and he has refused to ever admit he has done anything wrong.
If he fixed his mistake like a responsible, professional adult and businessman I would be more than happy to forgive him, and so would most of the other people who he has upset.
I really don't think this is a big issue for BYOND at large, as it goes. I appreciate you're obviously not very happy with what has gone down here, but your concerns lie with the game itself, and it'll be on that end of things that you'll need it addressed. If there's no dialogue at all between you two, then it has very much been addressed in my eyes, just not amicably.
What you are asking the platform to do I guess is coming to be expected, as places like the Apple store groom their listed content thoroughly. They also have a critical mass of users who's perspective of quality they need to maintain, and a critical mass of developers who want in on the market. By consequence, they also have a critical mass of money. BYOND comparatively, has none of those three things. Our model is gearing increasingly to allowing detached distribution from BYOND's website and player suite, more the direction of an engine than an app-store. When you take that route, developer confidence in your platform and their privileges when deploying from or developing on the platform, are paramount. Stepping in on every complaint we get like this makes no business sense. It harms developer confidence going forward, and usually we find, makes little difference on reputation of the platform from a player perspective anyway. My gut says actually, most people don't make that NEStalgia / BYOND association as you describe it. The majority don't look at whatever has gone on here, then look at another game developed on our platform, and go "Is this developed with ...? yes, BYOND. That's that platform NEStalgia used, this game is probably going to ban me randomly, better avoid playing it at all". It's not a very rational thought-pattern, when you're just on the verge of trying a new game out to relieve some boredom. In fact, while I appreciate the forums you've linked to are (as forums go) pretty huge, I don't think the topic there represents a big boo-boo, marketing-wise, for BYOND as a whole. I suspect, most of that forum's community don't care enough about that issue to avoid other BYOND games regardless of their merit solely on those grounds (I'm sure they'll find other grounds to do so, and that's basic customer preference stuff), or the platform solely on those grounds. Very much granted, some people do care about the issue, quite deeply, and those people will do so. But those people aren't most people, I think. | |
I understand that NEStagia or what errrr might be a "complete" game but what about teridal ? There are a lot more games on BYOND complete or not ( still either programmed good or have great graphics) what about them? Ever since the flash client you have focused on using NEStagia As a test subject what about the rest of great games created on BYOND ? Is it because they haven't advertised as much outside of BYOND?
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Y'all know that if any BYOND game (such as NEStalgia and various others) can win indie game awards, will lead to a great boost for BYOND.
Here's a quote I made similar to Neil Armstrong's (who recently passed away): "That's one small step for a developer, one giant leap for BYOND." On a personal note, I been planning for a C++ game and practicing some important skills to build it. However, I have recently begun work on my SByIo Library again to get whatever I need done and provide an open standard onscreen input (something I plan to make happen upon the full-fledged V3 release). | |
I would suspect so, in a way. Plus you kind of need a game to provide a test case for stuff like entirely new clients, so why not the game that's making you the most money?
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A.T.H.K wrote:
I understand that NEStagia or what errrr might be a "complete" game but what about teridal ? There are a lot more games on BYOND complete or not ( still either programmed good or have great graphics) what about them? Ever since the flash client you have focused on using NEStagia As a test subject what about the rest of great games created on BYOND ? Is it because they haven't advertised as much outside of BYOND? Tom wrote: I believe that Silk will be merely the first of many users to embark on this adventure. In just the last few months, I've interacted with PrideRavanok (Rise of the Pirates), WritingANewOne (Eternia), and Kumorii (Feed) regarding their promising games and distribution outside of BYOND. Hopefully NEStalgia can pave the path for these and future efforts. It sounds like he's spoken with a couple of the (currently) top games. If I had to take a completely baseless guess, I would say he started with NEStalgia because Silk has the most experience with promotion--rather successfully, too--and one of the more "external" player-bases. | |
A couple things to note here is the fact that if this group of individuals have a problem with something Silk has done, why would they think the solution to the problem would be to lash out at him on every public medium NEStalgia is ever mentioned on?
GenKin wrote: If he fixed his mistake like a responsible, professional adult and businessman I would be more than happy to forgive him, and so would most of the other people who he has upset. You haven't given him any reason to actually talk to you on a responsible professional level. You've done nothing but look down on him from day one, and it's human nature to push away the people that look down on you. The fact of the matter is that unless you're being outright destructive to the enjoyability of the game in the global chat channels, or harassing another player. Most of the time you're simply revoked your chatting privileges, and if you're banned for "asking for a friend to be unbanned", it's because you didn't take it to the forum in a private message like you were asked to. I have seen Silk ban people in game for that reason, and it's only after being told multiple times to take it to the forum privately, and then told that if they didn't do so they would be banned. Have you ever heard the saying "don't poke the bear"? because that's essentially what happens. I'm sorry that you've purchased a lifetime membership and you've been banned from the official servers, however if the community at Something Awful took the time to read and communicate with eachother, one of you would have caught on to a quote in this article that clearly states "What will most likely happen is that NEStalgia will become a downloadable game that allows players to host their own private or public servers." That means that you, and all your little Something Awful buddies will still be able to play NEStalgia, with your full lifetime memberships, and you won't have to even think about what kind of a person Silk is, or what he does in his spare time. Silk is a smart enough guy that he's not going to cut people off from playing his game because he doesn't like them personally, that's bad business practice. However, he's also smart enough to know when there's only a few official servers that when people are being disruptive to the enjoyment of others playing his game, he has to cut his losses and remove the problem. (Note: I am not Silk and I do not represent his opinions, development and/or design decisions in any way, shape, or form.) | |
Before these attacks started I actually received what amounted to a pretty hilarious ransom note (or scary, depending upon how you look at it) with a list of demands. If I didn't agree to the terms, the attacks would commence. The note was sent by a very brave anonymous person, and you can surmise from the ensuing attacks what my response was.
My only mistake in the Something Awful situation a couple months ago was in feeding the trolls. Both users were banned for repeated rule violations, and both were given plenty of warning. They were both so bad (and so infamous) that the rest of the NEStalgia community was happy to see them go. The girl in that thread who was banned actually sent me an apology a week later. This drama isn't a big deal. No one with half a brain who reads that SA thread cares about it. It may muck up our comments section for awhile on Greenlight, but if pathetic online drama like this was actually going to stop us then similar trolls here on BYOND would have taken us down years ago. Lord knows they tried. | |
A.T.H.K wrote:
I understand that NEStagia or what errrr might be a "complete" game but what about teridal ? There are a lot more games on BYOND complete or not ( still either programmed good or have great graphics) what about them? Ever since the flash client you have focused on using NEStagia As a test subject what about the rest of great games created on BYOND ? Is it because they haven't advertised as much outside of BYOND? We got in touch with Aaiko and many others months ago, when the standalone was in initial development. We're more than happy to work with anyone who has a good, original game. Silk has shown the most drive to promote his game and has also taken the initiative to contact us, so he's gotten the most attention. Really, although this may not be true, Silk appears to be the only user who is treating his game as a legitimate business operation-- which is just as much about marketing, networking, and finances as it is r&d. I am not trying to play favorites and have had run ins with Silk a few times in the past; I simply think he is a good game developer and that his game represents the system well. For what it's worth, he's been very professional and accomodating throughout our interactions. I am sure he has made some mistakes the past in dealing with users because it is basically impossible to be level-headed 100% of the time when Internet feedback is largely negative, but those shoudn't define the game he has spent a good part of the last few years creating, largely for people who will never pay him a cent. Hmm, this sounds familiar. | |
Let's just all be happy that a byond game has the chance to get some recognition and spotlight on a major gaming platform. The drama is ridiculous, there's no need for it. Even if Silk is the worst person in the world and is trying to enslave us all through NEStalgia, it doesn't matter. Point is, it's just a game. If you think Silk is evil, just don't play the game. It doesn't matter though. After reading that thread it's painfully obviously that these trolls are just idiots and don't know how to handle an issue even if they actually have a legit complaint. That doesn't make Silk right or wrong, but it just plain doesn't matter.
Hopefully we'll see a lot more good games sooner or later taking a similar route. They don't need to be MMOs either, even if BYONDs real advantage is the fact that every game can be instantly hosted and played. | |
Tom wrote:
I am sure he has made some mistakes the past in dealing with users because it is basically impossible to be level-headed 100% of the time when Internet feedback is largely negative, but those shoudn't define the game he has spent a good part of the last few years creating, largely for people who will never pay him a cent. Hmm, this sounds familiar. Exactly. As you, I and anyone else who has been in a position like this understands, keeping up a totally calm and collected front 24/7/365 can be a struggle in the face of such overwhelming vitriol. The fact that the unwashed masses expect anyone in a perceived position of power to be completely devoid of opinions, emotions or human reactions doesn't help matters. I don't regret banning those users - it's just unfortunate that I gave them the satisfaction of a personal response. At the end of the day though, it doesn't make a shred of difference in terms of NEStalgia's chances on Greenlight. | |
In an attempt to get the thread back on the right track, any other developers considering on developing something(with byond) to try and get it on Steam?
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Actually..who all are in their hiatus that we need to get in touch with. There was a good burst of activity during the beginning of this year, but I hardly see anything twitching now except maybe yut put, or so.
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A.T.H.K wrote:
I understand that NEStagia or what errrr might be a "complete" game but what about teridal ? I still consider my games to be in the developmental stages. If I advertised now, the game would see a large rise in users, just like any game, but only a small fraction of them would stick around. You only get a few chances to go viral (usually only one), so I'm holding off until the game is as complete as possible. Tom has tried working with me just the same, but I'm not ready yet. So it's not his fault. You guys need to cut him some slack. There's nothing wrong with what he is doing. I'll be completely honest and say there aren't really any decent and complete games on BYOND. There are a few, but NEStalgia meets all the requirements for doing what is being done. It's online, it's pretty much complete, it's completely map-based, it has completed outside websites, the developers are trying to advertise it, and so on. | |
aaiko. Seika/Teridal has been in development longer than I've been on BYOND. complete it pls.
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I think there are actually a bunch of older games that would do well as standalones (maybe not on Steam) if given a bit of graphics and UI polish. Last Robot Standing and Lode Wars immediately come to mind, and they were written what, 10 years ago?
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Doesn't Lode Wars have some unfixable bug, because...the source is lost to the ages?...and LRS is maintained by...Nadrew? or someone?
A lot of older games would be great -Flash- games. But, apparently the Flash client is only used to connect to servers - not for Single Player games. | |
Casual Quest also seems like a game that would be very popular with the Flash client.
Good luck getting onto Steam. It's a shame that the comments were derailed like that and hopefully it won't impact the final decision too much. | |
You also have to understand that people do make mistakes, and god knows we've all made irrational decisions when faced with criticism. You can hold that against someone forever, or you can think back to why you were ever in the position to be criticizing in the first place... in this case, probably because you had some passion fo the game. We don't tend to critique stuff we don't care about.