Surprisingly I'd never seen or played Vengeance before, and I was amazed that a FPS was possible and playable the way it was.
Does anyone think there's a future in BYOND for this?
Personally I'd like to see someone push the limits of the system with one of these games.
If you don't know what I'm talking about:
http://www.byond.com/games/Gakumerasara/ Vengeance56?tab=index
Also Note that I'm not necessarily talking about the FPS genre, but uses of a similar system for any type of game
ID:820572
 Jun 17 2012, 3:25 pm
|
|
|
Jun 17 2012, 4:11 pm
|
|
Magnum2k
 |
It's called raycasting. There are those who have attempted and failed, then there are those who did it successfully. I don't see a place for these games in BYOND; the engine was precisely made for 2D games.
|
Wow, that stuff is just mind blowing! It actually shows the illusion of perpective. I don't think I can even comprehend how those kind of algorithms work.
Anyway, I go by the philosophy that if it's possible, then there's a place for it. I just wouldn't have a clue how efficient you could possibly make the algorithms. Also, I have to wonder why nobody has ever thought of making a third-person platformer using ray casting. At least I don't know of any games like that. It seems like it would be fairly possible to do. I would assume that it's because the ray casting generation of game development never lasted long enough for any other genres to be made with it. It just kind of marched towards true 3D from there. Just imagine a ray casted game that plays like Super Mario 64 on BYOND! It seems like it would be possible, at least theoretically. Something that advanced would probably slow to a crawl though, especially if there were lots of monsters moving around. Even then, it would still be highly impressive if it worked to a minimal extent. Who ever might decide to make something like that, could probably be called the first person to ever make a ray casted platformer game. It would be the first one ever! Let me know if such a ray casted platformer actually does exist somewhere. I think there may be racing ones, but I never heard of platformers like that. | |
There was a period in time when virtually all 3D games were ray traced... A third person ray trace I can name off the top of my head is Space Harrier on the Sega Megadrive I believe, or maybe it was the master system.
In terms of putting it in Byond games... This demo is very poor and it would be easier to make a nice, clearer looking game with other techniques. Did you notice how it was very hard to judge distance, or that all the walls curved together? This is very poor ray tracing but it does work and that was the point (I know). I tried the ray caster library and it looks really nice but it was bugged from the start. I remember playing it on older versions of Byond perfectly but something has stuffed up and until then it's unplayable really, unless all the doorways are extra wide which is a possibility. The only thing with that engine though is that I've tried textures and it never works. Just plain colors work. So um yeah... 3D in Byond is possible but it's a toss up of many factors like detail, depth, sight distance etc. | |
Raruno wrote:
Personally I'd like to see someone push the limits of the system with one of these games. You think that pushes the limits? Here's a game that really pushes the limits: mob/Login() It pushes the limits so much there's not a single modern CPU that can handle it! Vengeance 56 doesn't "push the limits", at least not in a good way. It does something that BYOND isn't suited for and it's not a fun game. Here are some shooters that aren't first-person, but are much better games: http://www.byond.com/games/Kaiochao/shootah http://www.byond.com/games/SuperAntx/Decadence http://www.byond.com/games/Kumorii/Feed | |
Well, that's your opinion. I'm not someone to put down new ideas.
As for Space Harrier, I was quite shocked when I saw what that game looked like. Here is YouTube video of the original Space Harrier arcade version from 1985! I didn't think games got much better than Centipede back then. Sometimes I think I forget what time we are living in! However, Space Harrier is NOT an example of a ray casted game. It used a technique known as Pseudo-3D Sprite-Scaling. This is from a different era, and has almost no comparison to the ray casting techniques used later in games like Doom. It uses some form of scaling, not tracing, so it's probably much more simple. Correct me though if Doom actually used a combination of scaling and tracing. I wouldn't know. Now that I think about it, I wonder how well BYOND would handle such an engine. I have heard it's pretty slow with scaling sprites though. I would want to see how a sprite scaling engine might compare with a ray casting one in terms of performance. I'm sure that since BYOND has scaling already built in, it would be much more simple to program. It's too bad I'm not interested in this right now. I'm working on my own isometric project. I have always liked doing things that people say a system isn't "suited" for though. That's one of the forces that drives me. | |
Doing things that BYOND isn't suited for is often used as a way to feel better about failing. You can make a terrible game and it's ok, because you were doing something BYOND wasn't suited for - you weren't expecting to succeed.
There's nothing wrong with wanting to use these techniques and it's certainly possible to make fun games with them, but BYOND just isn't the right platform. You'll learn a lot more and make a better game if you use a different language. | |
Forum_account wrote:
Doing things that BYOND isn't suited for is often used as a way to feel better about failing. You can make a terrible game and it's ok, because you were doing something BYOND wasn't suited for - you weren't expecting to succeed.Well, that of course depends on how you define success. If you make a game BYOND isn't suited for, then maybe you have succeeded in proving that BYOND is suited for more than what everyone else had thought. Perhaps you would succeed in paving the way for others to try and go BeYOND what you have achieved. You would "succeed" in making the community more confident about a different genre. The truth is, if people don't try to make things that are different, then the community might never know, or never believe that BYOND is capable of supporting anything other than RPGs and platformers. I don't try to do things BYOND isn't supposed to be "suited" for so that I can feel better about failing. I am simply willing to take the chances, because I believe BYOND is more capable than everyone says it is, and I want to prove it! I have the element of surprise on my side, and if I dicover that BYOND has untapped uses then I may become very successful indeed. | |
Multiverse7 wrote:
Well, that of course depends on how you define success. If you make a game BYOND isn't suited for, then maybe you have succeeded in proving that BYOND is suited for more than what everyone else had thought. Perhaps you would succeed in paving the way for others to try and go BeYOND what you have achieved. You would "succeed" in making the community more confident about a different genre. BYOND isn't some magical thing that we can't possibly understand. It's often very easy to know what BYOND is and isn't capable of. Most of its users can't easily make this distinction but it doesn't make this any less true. Most users think BYOND is a program for creating rips of anime games. If we let the opinions of users decide what BYOND is suited for, we're in trouble! BYOND does all of the processing on the server and draws a graphical display on the client as a 2D grid of tiles. Given that setup, if you want to do something that's vastly different (ex: non-tile-based maps, different rendering methods) it's not the right tool for the job and there's often nothing to gain by trying. BYOND isn't the only tool so even if it's not suited for making first-person shooters, some other tool is. Focus on what you can do - worry about what you're capable of, not what BYOND's capable of. If you know how to make a first-person shooter you can find the right tool to help. Trying to use the wrong tool to make an FPS isn't going to get you very far. I believe BYOND is more capable than everyone says it is, and I want to prove it! I have the element of surprise on my side, and if I dicover that BYOND has untapped uses then I may become very successful indeed. BYOND's untapped ability is in the depth, not breadth. It's not that it's possible to make games of new genres with BYOND, but that it's possible to make better games than people currently make. We know it's possible to make an RPG or RTS with BYOND. The way that BYOND is more capable is that it's possible to make an even better RPG or RTS than anyone has made. There's no discovery element to it - we know it's possible it's just a matter of making it. | |
Forum_account wrote:
BYOND does all of the processing on the server and draws a graphical display on the client as a 2D grid of tiles. Given that setup, if you want to do something that's vastly different (ex: non-tile-based maps, different rendering methods) it's not the right tool for the job and there's often nothing to gain by trying. The SEGA Master System and SEGA Genesis were also tile-based systems. Did that stop SEGA developers from making pseudo 3D racing or shooting games? No, it didn't! At the time, those were the games that did the seemingly impossible, and became some of the most popular. Those games changed the status quo for development, and what was learned from them, led to the development of new levels of 2.5D in later systems. Another point I need to make is that FPS or racing would be considered genres, but sprite scaling or ray casting would not. Those are just design techniques. All that is really required for such first or third-person games is that the screen scroll upwards. So, in a sense you might call them "Forward Scrolling" games. Movement left or right would be very limited, and the map would be very tall. BYOND is easily capable of running these genres. It's just that if you decide to add things like sprite scaling, then things can get challenging. You shouldn't tell game developers to use another platform just because it might be more suited for a certain thing. A lot more developers will leave BYOND if you tell them that. Imagine if SEGA developers left in favor of some computer system just because it might have been better suited for racing or FPS games. They didn't leave. They believed in the power of their system and did the best they could with what they had. I think the problem here is not so much BYOND's capabilities, but the status quo that developers are working under. It's almost as if they are scared to try anything other than an RPG or sidescroller. Until someone stands up to that status quo, people are just not going to believe that anything else can work. You have demonstrated that to me perfectly. | |
There's more than enough of these topics. Because of that, the only solution is this: If you think it's feasible to make a first-person shooter with BYOND, do it and show us when you get somewhere. Good luck to you.
| |
Multiverse7 wrote:
I think the problem here is not so much BYOND's capabilities, but the status quo that developers are working under. It's almost as if they are scared to try anything other than an RPG or sidescroller. Until someone stands up to that status quo, people are just not going to believe that anything else can work. The problem isn't that we have good developers who are afraid to try making anything but an RPG. The problem is that we have lots of bad game developers who can barely make RPGs. They're not afraid to make other things, they're just not capable. You're correct that we need to change this status quo but we should do that by making good games (whether they're RPGs, platformers, shooters, racing games, board games, realtime strategy games, card games, puzzle game, etc.). There's already a lot of untapped potential, you don't need to go discovering some new type of game. We need to raise the standard of quality that people hold BYOND games to and you're not going to do that by making a bad first-person shooter. You shouldn't tell game developers to use another platform just because it might be more suited for a certain thing. A lot more developers will leave BYOND if you tell them that. BYOND isn't a place that people live in, it's a tool they use. You can't leave a tool. If you want to make a first-person shooter, BYOND isn't the right tool. I don't use BYOND for everything, only the things it's good for. If you truly want to learn how to make an FPS you should use a different tool. Trying to use BYOND for it won't help anyone. Another point I need to make is that FPS or racing would be considered genres, but sprite scaling or ray casting would not. Those are just design techniques. All that is really required for such first or third-person games is that the screen scroll upwards. So, in a sense you might call them "Forward Scrolling" games. Movement left or right would be very limited, and the map would be very tall. BYOND is easily capable of running these genres. It's just that if you decide to add things like sprite scaling, then things can get challenging. I have no idea what you're talking about. First person shooters and racing games have left/right movement, it's not all moving forwards. And the screen doesn't scroll upwards. When you walk forwards in an FPS, not everything on the screen scrolls downwards. There is perspective - things move towards the edge of the screen as you move forwards because you're getting closer to them. Out of everything you mentioned, scaling sprites is the easy part - just call icon.Scale(). | |
Forum_account wrote:
We know it's possible to make an RPG or RTS with BYOND. I don't think so, not without some sort of drag selection. It's an integral part of the RTS control scheme. Well, I guess you could make one in a technical sense, but it wouldn't be any good. Or fun. | |
SuperAntx wrote:
I don't think so, [...] Nope! Well, I guess you could make one in a technical sense, but it wouldn't be any good. Or fun. Yep! | |
Yeah, good luck playing that over a network.
| |
SuperAntx wrote:
Yeah, good luck playing that over a network. A game incorporating this doesn't necessarily have to be an online RTS. I'm pretty sure you can make dozens of single-player games using this, not to mention that it would be even more stable in a single-player game. | |
Forum_account, I don't personally have any interest in making a FPS game. If I were going to go in that direction I would probably attempt a racing one. Anyway, I was only trying to support the idea of creating these types of games. If someone wants to try and make one, I think they should try it! I'm not going to though, because I am working on an isometric RTS game. Even in the case of RTS games, people always tell me to give up, or that it's just not possible with BYOND. I don't care what they say. I have seen what WildBlood has done with Omnipotence, and I never knew him, but I'm sure he was just playing around when he made that game!
SuperAntx, I was working on a selection box system for a while. Drag selection is very essential to the game I have been working on. I think I can at least make it look like it's pixel perfect, but the mob detection itself probably won't be. Forum_account mentioned how it would help if this feature was implemented. I suppose we should try and revive it, as every other solution I can think of goes way out of the way. | |
SuperAntx wrote:
Forum_account wrote: Why can't BYOND handle that? It's not ideal to have input commands sent to the server to be processed but that's something every BYOND game has to deal with whether they're using mouse or keyboard input. Dragging a box to select units is just as feasible as pressing the arrow keys to move, so either they both work or neither works. | |
At 0:22 I can see the box glitch out, at 0:37 it stays in place while you move away. I'm guessing you're either using HDK's Mouse And Keys lib or just something similar where all your selection coordinates are tied to the map.
While it's possible to iron out most of that jank for a single player game you're going to have all sorts of problems and graphic issues once you take it online. Because it's one of the core forms of player input your players will constantly be using it and will notice every single time it lags behind or glitches up visually. It's not a realiable feature you could base a game around, at least not right now. What BYOND needs is a way to grab those coordinates and draw the box locally on the client's computer so it's fast and responsive while they're dragging the box around. Once they've confirmed their selection the coordinates aught to be sent back to the server where you can process the input and go from there. | |
You're assuming things have to be a lot harder than they actually are. Just make the selection box tile-based so you only update it every time the player moves the mouse to a new tile. Having to create images on the server to update the client's display still isn't ideal, but again, this is one of those things that every game has to deal with.
| |