I have a question dear BYOND community, since when did BYOND programmers want 15$ an hour to 30$ an hour for programming without any actual degrees in programming?
I am currently going to college for a Software Developer, I just started my second year, I am progressing very nicely. I have got a few internship offers who are willing to pay me and they are offering 15$ an hour. Granted I have a year on my belt and I have shown I am quite good at what I do.
Now tell me why exactly these 20-25 year old BYOND programmers are charging 15$-30$ and hour without any degrees? Its laughable.
Lets look at Avidanimefan, shall we?
He charges 15$ an hour+ He has no degrees, nothing. I even found out he doesnt even have an actual job. And he is trying to charge THAT much. For a single system(Pretty complex in some areas but in most basic) he wanted at least 50 dollars. This job would take at most 2 hours. So he wanted 25$ per hour right there.
People let me tell you, if you ever need someone to do a programming job for you and they want more than 15$ per hour and they dont have ANY certification. Tell them to kick rocks. They are WAYYYY overcharging you for not being certified, as I typing this right now, Avidanimefan is spamming me with ignorant comments.
Apparently 70k a year is poverty advice from Avidanimefan: http://prntscr.com/glbqgy
He doesnt even know numbers, or proper wages. Another piece of advice, dont let someone charge you if they dont even know 70k is WAY over poverty.
Oh and apparently he is better than people who have college degrees in software development. http://prntscr.com/glbsxw
Another piece of advice, if someone is ignorant enough to tell you they are better with someone of degrees. End it there. They clearly dont under stand stuff.
This post is not to hate on one person, but the programmers who seek more money than they are worth. Avid is just an example for the many people out there. If they dont have any certification, dont let them over charge you. You are wasting money you may or may not have.
I am sorry for posting this twice, this is to help others and his screenshots were clouding the thread.
Update: I blocked him on discord he kept messaging me and spamming, got annoying. Check out his post. I dont mind though, at least people have been warned about people similar to Avid.
ID:2293989
 Sep 14 2017, 9:13 pm (Edited on Sep 15 2017, 11:01 pm)
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degrees and certs don't make you a better or worse programmer
actually they probably make you worse | |
Forget that he doesn't have a degree, and education, a certificate, any training, or any real skill in programming. He also doesn't have any sense. He is entertaining though.
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 *shrug* | |
Avidanimefan wrote:
- doesn't have u4m's code to compare - avid's code is better than u4m's code Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm | |
Don't worry about Avid. You can't bring him around to any kind of a reasonable discussion about anything without the conversation turning into some horrible shitfest involving the word slander. (It's libel you fucking donkey. I'm not actually saying you are a donkey, by the way. I'm pointing out, for the record, in a non-libellous way that you are a stubborn ass. And when I say ass, I don't mean to imply that you are a long-eared, slow, dim-witted equine. Merely that I believe that you are demonstrably stubborn, slow, and dim-witted by my own personal opinion. I also don't mean to imply you are actually fucking anything or anyone. It's merely a superlative to express the degree to which your attitude resembles that of a donkey, which is again to state that you are not literally a donkey, but dim, slow, and stubborn.)
@tavren But I'm gonna be honest, looks to me like you are trying to set the rate and demand the time for the job. I don't get out of bed for less than $100. If it ain't gonna buy a dinner for two and maybe dessert, I won't take the job. No matter how small anymore. He charges 15$ an hour+ He has no degrees, nothing. I even found out he doesnt even have an actual job. And he is trying to charge THAT much. For a single system(Pretty complex in some areas but in most basic) he wanted at least 50 dollars. This job would take at most 2 hours. So he wanted 25$ per hour right there. I've taken enough jobs to know that if you are paying for someone else to write the code for you, you by definition have zero idea how long it will take. Y'all paying out for jobs wanna tell someone it should only take 2 hours, and only wanna pay the flat rate per hour, when bidding on the job and reconciling requirements is gonna eat an extra hour of time, implementation with your existing code is gonna take another couple hours, researching what you are already doing to dovetail the system nicely with what you have is another couple hours, and then inevitable three hour conversation after someone writes code for you to explain why how you tried to use the code immediately after I gave it to you is wrong... I dunno, only wanting to pay for the 2 hours to actually write the new code doesn't really cover the job. @tavren As far as I'm concerned, you should be ready to pay the day rate. If you want 2 hours of his time, you are buying 8 hours of his time. $50 to buy some nebulous code off some random on the internet is more than reasonable. I'd have charged you twice that at least, depending on what it is. You say "professionals only". There's a pool of maybe five people tops you can ask that of. All of them aren't gonna waste their time on your job unless you can pony right on up a proper fee that makes it worth their while. "It's only BYOND." is the attitude that makes everything around here mediocre, and if you want something professional, but still wanna pay the BYOND third-world rate and dictate that everything done at as breakneck a pace as possible without any consideration for the overall structure of your game, you deserve to hire someone like Avid to fuck up everything you want made. ...Also It's pretty undeniable that I'm an expert at writing clean, modular DM code. I've got a level of understanding of how DM works that can only be matched by a handful of people in this community. The only one of them in this thread is SSX. Saying Avid writes better code than U4M is patently false. I've seen enough of Avid's code to know that his level of understanding is miles worse than he thinks it is. He literally doesn't know enough about how computers work at a basic level to write decent code, and he churns out garbage puppy mill style just to make a quick buck without understanding how his code is going to scale in the future. It seems to work, but it's generally not modular, and littered with the artifacts of his own misconceptions. This isn't libel/slander. It's an expert opinion based on code I've seen, and I have every good reason to believe that we've demonstrated publicly his level of competence to match what's been said above. | |
Avidanimefan wrote:
What is slander punishable by law? Literally linking to definitions of the terms and you can't even get libel down as the right choice smh. And on top of it, libel has a fairly high standard. You like to throw around the libel/slander threat as I've seen you before—and it's hilarious because I doubt you could pay a lawyer to take it even if it was a decent case considering how small the damages would be—but you don't seem to have any sense that if the claims were so easy to win in court Yelp and Google would never have a negative review. | |
  Hover over the date for the full timestamp, fyi. [Edit] And since I was obviously (see above) blocked and not given time to respond, I wanted to let Avid know a few things since he'll likely look anyways.
1Seriously, this dude thinks that he knows more about math than me because something I said disagreed with what he thinks he knows. Specifically, the claim that "a vector is something with magnitude and direction", which is often taught as an introductory way to visualize them, but is strictly wrong. Refer to Wikipedia's list of the vector space axioms, and you'll see that there is no reference to any notion of magnitude or orientation. These require further structure, specifically of a norm and an inner product respectively (though every inner product induces a norm). There are many examples of vector spaces without any clear notion of either of these, most notably vector spaces over finite fields (as norms and inner products only make sense when the underlying field is the real numbers or the complex numbers). This little lie mostly comes from the fact that introductory courses usually work with Euclidean space, which has a natural inner product in the form of the dot product. | |
On degrees:
http://fortune.com/2015/09/01/computer-science-degree/ Computer science degrees aren't really what you think they are. Degrees aren't the credentials that matter in terms of programming skill. Experience is really what matters. In general, a computer science degree is going to look like the following: General requirements: 9 credits English 10 credits mathematics (caculus, matrices, maybe some trig) 9 credits physics 6 credits arts 6 credits humanities 6 credits behavioral science 3 credits phys ed. 6 credits Computer science. (Intro/Intermediate programming, generally C++ or Java) Core: 36 credits Computer science 3 credits Mathematics (statistics) 15 credits Technical Electives. 11 credits additional. In general, we have a total of about 60 credit hours of actual technical training to have a degree in the subject. That's A little shy of 1,000 actual hours of in-seat instruction. I'd take a self-taught highschool dropout with 10K hours behind the wheel of a major programming language before I'd take someone with 1K hours of in-class instruction. To be totally frank, degrees aren't what make you worth your rate. It's experience. Degrees are a good way to get access to information and people you need to earn that experience, but they mean fuck all with regard to what you are actually worth as an independent contractor. I'm a certified HVAC technician. I'd hire a guy that worked as an apprentice under a master mechanic for three months before I'd hire a 2 year technical graduate with no work experience on the job. The apprentice is gonna know what's up. The certified tech hasn't been in an attic at 150 degree temperatures, and hasn't seen the fucked up, jury-rigged shit you run into under a house that can kill you in two seconds flat if you assume the last guy did his job properly. A guy with real world experience and a technical certification tho? Real talk that guy's probably already got a job, and I'm not gonna be able to afford him. On contract work: You get what you pay for. Avid's worth $50 for a small job. $50 for a small job is nothing. You are throwing that money away. Without even getting into the quality of Avid's work, I wouldn't insult an brand new programmer with an offer of $50 for a job. It's just not even worth taking the offer. If you want short-term work, and you want to pay an hour or two, prepare to pay them for a whole day of their time. You don't know when you will need that person to fix a bug in their code, or help you work with how you are using their code. You don't know when you are gonna need to change the requirements for what they wrote down the line, and you don't know how well their code is gonna scale. If you want the work done right, never bid a job on hours alone. That only gives them the incentive to cut corners and fuck you over, because you are showing them that you are willing to fuck them over and don't care about them taking the time to do it right. I largely don't take paid work anymore around here because peoples' expectations are too high. They want 40 hours a week of work, and want to pay $100-200 a month. They want professional level code, but wanna pay $5-10 an hour. They want to make an MMO when they don't want to spend the time taking the backend infrastructure to support such a thing seriously. They will run your name through the mud when they can't use your code properly, assuming that their incompetence is your problem, and since they paid you, they are entitled to take all your time in the future supporting a product that they paid pennies on the dollar for. You get what you pay for. You want professional code, be prepared to pay professional prices. Don't even negotiate with knuckleheads that have repeatedly proven they don't know what they are doing, and don't insult people with slave wages. If you can't afford to hire someone to write code that's out of your reach, don't hire people to write the code. Don't plan to make a project that requires that code. Learn to do it yourself or change your project goals. The minute you say the word "professional" you up your prices and limit your pool of applicants. Programming is hard. You are asking people to make a tangible product that will serve as a core of your game. You are asking people to apply years of experience and learned theory to craft something that will not just function, but do so cleanly, quickly, and interface with unknown future code easily. I frequently go out and make $300 for 2-3 hours of work patching drywall, cleaning and inspecting an air handler, or moving a fridge out of someone's basement and taking it for biohazard disposal. Why should anyone spend years honing their skills doing anything if unskilled manual labor is more lucrative? What message are you sending by telling people that a 2 hour job is worth maybe $20-$30, and that they simultaneously need to have thousands of hours of experience to do it? Summary: Just because one guy is a dick doesn't mean you aren't also laboring under delusions of your own. Also, good luck finding many DM programmers with a degree in CS. CS is a terrible degree path, and 2/3rds of programmers in the industry worth their salt don't have a CS degree. Not only that, if you are looking for a DM programmer with a degree, you are paying 1/10th what they could get working in the other languages they know. So why even throw a shitfit about someone wanting $20 more than you want to pay? Now tell me why exactly these 20-25 year BYOND programmers are charging 15$-30$ and hour without any degrees? If they have 20-25 years of experience in a programming language period, they are worth way more than 15-30$ an hour, and you are barking up the wrong tree. A guy with 20-25 years of experience is in a lot of cases gonna be more trouble than he's worth, because you and he aren't gonna be even close to the same level of understanding. You will simply lack the insight into how much you don't know that they do, and what they are going to find an acceptable solution to your job is going to be very different than what you are going to be able to comprehend. ...Avid doesn't have 20-25 years experience programming in DM. If he's made that exact claim, he's been writing DM 1-6 years longer than it's been around, and 8-12 years longer than his first key was registered on the site. Look for someone at the 5-7 year mark, and you are on target. Anybody over that isn't gonna want their time wasted. | |
https://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/ computer-programmer/salary
According to this, even the lowest 10% of programmers make around $23 / hr when you break down the math, assuming a 5-day, 8-hour work week ($44,450 / yr). Even if DM isn't a mainstream language it's still programming and it's still work. Avid had every right to be insulted by your offer and the fact that you called him out in public shows a serious lack of class on your part. And Ter is right -- programming is definitely one of the biggest fields where a degree means somewhere between jack and shit. | |
Popisfizzy wrote:
Avidanimefan wrote: I would wager that I didn't write a single line of code. I get so many people asking for quotes that don't have the money to actually pay real programming rates that I don't even know who this could be. Just another clown that expected me to program 15 anime games for $2.50 and half a Big Mac, I'd guess. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ | |
hurr durr get a degree itll make u instantly smarter
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Unwanted4Murder wrote:
https://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/ computer-programmer/salary And that isn't taking into consideration the fact that 1099 work is not employee work. If you hire a 1099, expect to pay 130% the hourly rate for an employee at least, because you aren't giving them the promise of reliable employment, and taxes for 1099 work are way higher. $10 an hour is what burger king offers these days. Hire a programmer for the price you'd pay a fry jockey, expect garbage. | |
Just popping in here, I didn't go to school because I fucking hate it. Well I went and left, after taking only gen ed stuff and two shitty programming courses.
That being said, I was able to find employment as a programmer without formal education. | |
While I have no opinion on whatever's between you and Avid (frankly I can't be bothered to read all that), I feel I should clear one thing up.
$15/hr. is not a bad wage at all to pay for programming. Programming is a skill and it really should pay more than that. And degrees don't matter a rat's ass when it comes to programming, except maybe when trying to get a company to notice your résumé. Skill and experience are all that really matter. I don't have a programming degree; I do have a computer science degree that involved taking some programming courses, but I was already programming on an amateur basis long before I went to college. The courses I took in programming were either useless--Pascal is a dead language as far as I'm concerned, and COBOL should have been double-tapped and buried in a freaking ditch--or taught things I already knew, or a few I took (Java) because I specifically wanted to learn those languages. Heck, we live in a world where Bernie Sanders wants to raise the minimum wage to $15. Now that's completely idiotic, but mind you there are people making the argument that all labor, no matter how unskilled, should make that kind of money. Programming is a lot more difficult than working a cash register. | |
15$ an hour isn't idiotic, when you consider cost of living.
Corporate entities are essentially trying to force people into working 2-3 jobs to survive. Just one of many instances where the average joe has had the wool pulled over his / her eyes by the obfuscgation of fact. If you think 15$ an hour is absurd, you probably owe it to yourself to look a little closer at what is actually going on in America. There is a battle for truth vs appearance of truth. One side is only interested in maintaining perceptions while they try to enforce a matrix like society. The other wants freedom. I'll give you a hint, I live in mississippi. Repubs have had hold of this state forever, yet it is the most ignorant, poor and uneducated state in the union, it literally ranks last in almost everything. Control for hundreds of years, but they then blame that on liberals and democrats. Let that sink in. This is just one instance of many where conservatives as a whole screw the pooch. They fail to notice that their party is the largest source of fact distortion in the country, solely to disguise the fact that they want to keep Americans poor and broke in general. | |
You can make money coding??
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programmers don't need to eat lmao
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Rocknet wrote:
Just popping in here, I didn't go to school because I fucking hate it. Well I went and left, after taking only gen ed stuff and two shitty programming courses. I have no degree either, I was self taught and I've been a web Dev and software engineer for over 10 years working for a huge corporation (PwC).. certificates mean nothing with experience. Someone in this thread said a certificate only helps making your resume stand out, it's completely true.. Also I wouldn't even put my leg out of bed for $15 USD an hour.. it's a pretty generous price IMO. | |
Your flat out lying. And I'm not going to tell you to correct it or stop it again.
Fix your post. You're bordering on offenses punishable by law, aka slander which results in loss of profits or funds is a punishable offense.
I didn't harass you. I asked you to block me nearly 3 hours ago and told you I wasn't interested in the job.
I also have screen shots of the other ENTIRE thread.
I've already warned this community once about this, and I'm warning you PERSONALLY.
What is slander punishable by law?