The correct opinion of Overwatch

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May 30 2016, 6:19 pm
@themagic man

the reason why a developer may "casualize" a game is so that it's more accessible to almost everyone. Also to everyone one person who doesn't like it for whatever reason there are probably 5 casuals who do.

I mean look @ some of the shite they did with the game.

1. Not overly graphic. <- parents will be like omg ill tots buy this 4 my imaginary kids

2. "Instant gratification" People who don't like to be challenged/pretty bad at games won't be discouraged by getting 100% rekt all the time.

3. Lots of funny as hell moments. Boosting a reaper off a cliff and the reaper deciding to use his ult as he's falling to his death.

4. Hot females. To draw in the closet nerds ;)

5. Plenty of different plays styles that isnt restricted to per mach or per character. <- easier time for people to find and fill a roll they feel comfortable.


Now the game isnt perfect i do have a few issues with it liiiike

1. Inability to get tracer to say u w0t m8?

2. Lack of maps

3. Lack of game modes

4. Op ass reapers, and bastions

5. p2wlbte(pay to look better than everyone) loot boxes. Srsly i pride myself in looking like the best person when i walk into a room if you start giving people the best looking stuff just cause they throw money at the screen then im gonna have a problem >:l. Nothing good can come from stuff like this :/.

edit:
Besides who gives a shit the casual side of me is having fun and if its having fun then im gud. Now for the hardcore part of me huehuehue gotta go play more bloodborne for that.
May 30 2016, 6:30 pm
In response to Ghost of ET
5. p2wlbte(pay to look better than everyone) loot boxes. Srsly i pride myself in looking like the best person when i walk into a room if you start giving people the best looking stuff just cause they throw money at the screen then im gonna have a problem >:l. Nothing good can come from stuff like this :/.

Better than paying to be the strongest, right?

I agree with your general point though. Not everything has to be "game theory this, game theory that" when it comes to making a game people can enjoy.
May 30 2016, 6:39 pm
It's not even about game theory. It's just that I don't find overly simple things enjoyable.

I use to work in a factory where I'd pick something up, move it forwards, pull my hands back then press down on my foot over and over again for 8 hours a day. It was the most boring thing I've ever done in my life. Some people had been doing that job for over 20 years, it took me 2 days before I started looking for another job and 2 weeks before I found one.

Likewise, some people can probably play Overwatch for 20 hours a day and not get bored. I get bored after 20 minutes. This is why I do not like the game.
May 30 2016, 6:45 pm
In response to The Magic Man
The Magic Man wrote:
All I'm seeing is you don't like mean people on the internet. This kind of thinking is the reason Riot ban people for saying "gg" after a game has ended.

I'm actually one of the "mean" people. I'm chat restricted on 3 accounts, was recently banned for 2 weeks on a 4th in League, mainly because when people blame me for their incompetence, I tell them to STFU and get reported for... telling them to STFU. I mean I started off in Heroes of Newerth, and that game is worse than both League and Dota 2 combined. They literally give you tools you need to be a dickhead, such as dumpster emotes falling out the sky. If that was too much to handle, I would've quit HoN immediately.

It's not "toxic" players that are the problem. It's that Riot treats their userbase like literal babies when most of them just need to grow some thicker skin.

True. On the other hand, some people need to STFU though. I can't even play my favorite role in League of Legends, which is jungler, without muting my entire team. Whenever anything goes wrong in League of Legends, the jungler is always the scapegoat similar to how if there's no wards on the map, it's instantly the supports fault despite the fact that anyone can purchase a damn ward in Dota 2.

I mean, I'm no bigwig human behaviour researcher, but to me it seems like common sense to just let kids learn to deal with this kind of stuff. I mean, I learned to ignore these kinds of people when I was like 5, and trash talking in these games doesn't bother me at all.

It's not that I get my feelings hurt, it's just that it becomes significantly harder to win once your teammates have decided they'd rather fight YOU instead of the enemies. I can deal with being called a "noob". What I don't like having to deal with is losing a match because one of my teammates is sitting in the base typing "omg you guys all suck just give up" 20 times. Even after putting the person on mute, that doesn't stop them from no longer attempting to win the game, feeding, killing the courier intentionally, using abilities to disadvantage their own teammates, etc. so any game that gives these nerds less reasons to go apeshit is a good thing.

For example, I've had Alchemist players in Dota 2 start intentionally feeding not even a minute into the laning phase just because someone took the bounty rune instead of letting him have it. The fact that the damn bounty rune even exists in the first place at the beginning of the game presents an opportunity to be an asshat, and for players, specifically those playing Alchemist, to get pissed off when something like that occurs. So he types "dumbass team, GG" in all chat, runs mid, dies, respawns, dies again, eventually the enemy Shadow Fiend has completed 3 items while I'm only halfway done finishing my first. I'm supposed to enjoy this shit?

Also, I wasn't talking about stuff like removing towers, items and levelling when I mentioned they removed elements from the game.
I was talking about stuff like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAEOiIF8Piw
As in, they removed entire mechanics and casualized the game by giving people a literal rocket jump ability instead of just letting them figure it out on their own.

I'm going to assume you were joking here. I don't think you're THAT crazy to really believe Pharah's game play should resemble what's in that TF2 video.

Honestly, TF2 vs Overwatch is developing a lot like LoL vs DotA 2. One of them is casual and all complex elements and mechanics are removed to attract a bigger audience, and players are being fooled into believing it somehow makes the game better but they can never give an actual concrete explanation why.

Dota 2 is the better game, but it's not just because Dota 2 is harder. You can actually pinpoint several aspects and compare them to League side by side and see why Dota 2 is a better game. I've stated the reasons before, and I didn't just say "League is simplified, therefore it is automatically the worse game". I talked about how much of the champion pool was viable. I pointed out how active items sucked in League. I elaborate on how Dota 2 allows for more flexibility in team compositions. I also felt they consistently insult people's intelligence. You don't remember this because you don't play League, but they released a patch which made consecutive turret shots larger to help players understand that they were taking more damage - as if we were all too stupid to notice we were taking more damage per turret shot by noticing the larger and larger chunks of health we were losing after each one. I wanted to strangle whoever came up with that dumb shit. I've played MOBAs constantly since 2011 and I have never once come across a player who didn't understand how towers/turrets work. They also think Bloodseeker's ultimate is bad game design. One of the people on Riot's design team wrote a wall of text explaining how such an ability was unacceptable and reading it gave me cancer.

The problem with League isn't that it's simplified. It's because it's simplified on top of having gone full retard in multiple instances. Overwatch is simplified in comparison to other similar games but I've yet to see something in the game that just straight up baffles me. I've had plenty of "baffled" moments in League. Even things like Bastion are not all that bad when you consider it's only possible to rape with him when:

- You position yourself correctly as to not get flanked ( there isn't ALWAYS a corner to back yourself into )
- You have a tank creating a distraction for you
- Someone's healing the tank so your meat shield doesn't die
- The enemies aren't taking advantage of flanking routes
- The enemies aren't picking heroes that work well against Bastion

All 5 of these conditions have to be met for you to just sit in one spot and easily rake in the kills. If one or more of these conditions are not met, playing him is not all it's cracked up to be. It requires a combination of your team being really cooperative and the enemy team being really inexperienced.

Personally I dislike Overwatch (and LoL) specifically because they're simplified to the point that they fail to keep me in the zone. Clearly the developers at Blizzard and Riot don't know a great deal about game theory because they don't understand the relation between challenge and skill level.
http://files.byondhome.com/TheMagicMan/flow.jpg
Picture related. A good game would keep players in the flow channel. I just end up in boredom when I play Overwatch.

I don't believe the majority of players are in the flow channel in Dota 2. "Anxious" is a perfect word to describe them. Same with League. So many players are already angry before the game even begins. Nobody trusts anybody, everyone is pissed off at someone or something that happened during their last game that went poorly, and you have people typing "it's over" before the match even begins. If that's not anxious, I don't know what is. Obviously this is different at the highest levels of play since part of getting that far is learning to deal with the stress aspect of competitive games, but most players are not at that level.

I mean if one of your complaints is about how easy it is to get "eliminations", why aren't you playing Bloodline Champions? I've played both and I've come to the conclusion it's harder to get kills in BC than in Dota 2, yet no one plays BC. Making the game more difficult doesn't make it a better game... it just makes it a more difficult game.
May 30 2016, 7:01 pm
I think your definition of toxic and mine are probably different.

When I think of toxic, I think of trash talking. The people who win games and say "gg ez" and such. Your definition seems to be broader and includes things like intentional feeding and trying to purposely ruin games.
Honestly, I hardly ever run into intentional feeders or people who ruin games on purpose. Ironically, despite playing LoL less and Riot trying to stomp out this kind of behaviour, I use to see it significantly more in LoL than in DotA 2. I think I've seen it twice in DotA 2 and probably 20-30 times in LoL.

I guess if you're going to treat your players like babies, they're going to act like babies when they don't get their own way.

As or that rocket jumping video, it was an example of something you cannot do in Overwatch. It has a very low skill ceiling and doesn't take long to master characters, that video was an example of this.

Your comment about Riot treating their player base like retards feels like what Blizzard do in Overwatch. You cannot take 3 steps without getting a message on screen congratulating you for doing something awesome, you get tons of gold medals after every game and get free pats on the back for pressing your AOE instant kill button. But it's worse than that, since lots of classes have abilities that either auto aim, are instant kills (or both) and some even get wall hacks. It's kind of insulting to think I need this kind of stuff. I'm not a baby, I'd rather earn my play of the game instead of just pressing my auto aim instant kill ability and getting 5 kills.

My complaint isn't that it's easy to get eliminations. My complaint is Blizzard seem to think I need to be treated like I'm some kind of simpleton who needs constantly reassuring I'm awesome. I don't.
May 30 2016, 7:44 pm
In response to The Magic Man
Soooo who wants to play overwat wit me?
May 30 2016, 7:54 pm
I actually really like the wall hack thing. Do you know how much I have to change my play style when there's an enemy Widowmaker? It's like a game within a game, especially with me since as I stated before, I like to flank and get superior positioning on enemies. Widowmaker makes it hard to do this since sometimes I hesitate to flank because I know there's a possibly she ulted and someone is going to be waiting for me as soon as I appear behind enemy lines. It gives the game the extra challenge you claim it doesn't have. Ultimates are supposed to be OP anyway, that's why it's called your "ultimate ability".

I can go back to the Alliance example with this. Puck presses R. Doesn't even kill anything with it, he just presses R and runs away, but it served its purpose in cancelling TPs and creating space for the rest of Alliance to secure the victory.



Are we really going to pretend like people pressing R in the right place at the right time in Dota 2 doesn't yield game-changing results like it does in Overwatch? Dota 2 is indeed the more difficult game, but there are instances in that game as well where someone just hits one or two buttons and ends up having an enormous impact on a team fight.
May 30 2016, 8:13 pm
In response to EmpirezTeam
If that video was of Overwatch, he'd have pressed one button then DIE DIE DIE and gotten 6 kills.
May 30 2016, 9:54 pm
Dota 2 is a strategy game. Overwatch is (supposedly) a skill based arena shooter.

Instant gratification has no place in one of these, and in the other it isn't nearly as impactful.

Apples to oranges though, an 'easy' game doesn't make it a 'bad' game. Mario still rocks, yo, but Overwatch is so watered down that it hurts.

Your analogy of Widowmaker is basically perfect for this. If the enemy team has a Widowmaker, flanking becomes immeasurably less effective. Is that supposed to be a good thing? Is that a game within a game? Or is it literally just straight up killing an effective tactical play, whilst the Widowmaker feels super koolzor xd
May 30 2016, 10:18 pm (Edited on May 30 2016, 10:24 pm)
In response to Rushnut
Rushnut wrote:
Your analogy of Widowmaker is basically perfect for this. If the enemy team has a Widowmaker, flanking becomes immeasurably less effective. Is that supposed to be a good thing? Is that a game within a game? Or is it literally just straight up killing an effective tactical play, whilst the Widowmaker feels super koolzor xd

And if she didn't have the ult, your complaint would be "the game is too easy because defense heroes don't have any way of dealing with getting flanked which makes them easy kills".

In League of Legends, pretty much every champion makes something else immeasurably less effective. It's called a "counter". I guess counters are bad game design now xd
May 30 2016, 10:27 pm
Water types are effective against fire types. Fire types are effective against grass types. Grass types are effective against water types. Ground types are effective against fire types. Uhhh hmmm dragon types are effective against dragon types. Fairy types are effective against fairy types. Liam Neeson types are effective against bad guys throats.

Its a better looking, more fun pokemon fps.
May 30 2016, 10:29 pm
In response to Ghost of ET
Ghost of ET wrote:
Water types are effective against fire types. Fire types are effective against grass types. Grass types are effective against water types. Ground types are effective against fire types. Uhhh hmmm dragon types are effective against dragon types. Fairy types are effective against fairy types. Liam Neeson types are effective against bad guys throats.

Its a better looking, more fun pokemon fps.

picking charmander against bulbasaur is literally just straight up killing an effective tactical pokemans xD
May 30 2016, 10:43 pm
In response to EmpirezTeam
EmpirezTeam wrote:
I guess counters are bad game design now xd

Yes, they are actually, that is pretty much a standard well known concept. Counters promote stale gameplay. Pokémon is pretty much the only game left with straight up hardcountering, I would say TF2 as well, but TF2 has worked so hard with the addition of the 345234562 new weapons to break the shitty X beats Y mould that I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.

inb4 another 400 word post of which I'll only read the last three lines to get the point and in addition to that, the cheap laugh which you're good for.
May 31 2016, 2:24 am
There is a difference between a hard counter and a soft counter. A hard counter is like rock beating scissors, it's a guaranteed win every single time. A soft counter is like fire beating grass, it's an advantage but it's not a guaranteed win.

Although I'm not sure you'd call Widowmakers wall hack a counter. It is literally a mechanic that exists to aid bad players. It's existence removes an element of skill from the game you'd otherwise need (knowledge of the map and how an enemy player might move through it).

It's basically just lowering the skill ceiling of the game. When the game has lots of things like this (which Overwatch does), you end up with a game that is just too easy to be good at but doesn't really allow good players to be really good.
May 31 2016, 5:51 am
In response to The Magic Man
The Magic Man wrote:
There is a difference between a hard counter and a soft counter. A hard counter is like rock beating scissors, it's a guaranteed win every single time. A soft counter is like fire beating grass, it's an advantage but it's not a guaranteed win.

Although I'm not sure you'd call Widowmakers wall hack a counter. It is literally a mechanic that exists to aid bad players. It's existence removes an element of skill from the game you'd otherwise need (knowledge of the map and how an enemy player might move through it).

There are still tons of things to compare this to in Dota 2. You keep bringing up aspects of things you perceive as "ez mode" in Overwatch when similar things exist in Dota 2. Anti-Mage's Blink removes an element of skill you'd otherwise need ( poor positioning? no problem, just Blink to a safer spot every few seconds! and let's also not forget his built in magic resistance just in case he's stupid enough to not buy a BKB ). Slardar's ult removes an element skill you'd otherwise need ( too retarded to buy dust and sentries? just ult that Bounty Hunter and problem solved! ). Silencer removes an element of skill you'd otherwise need ( do you suck at team fights? just silence every single person on the enemy team, now everyone who isn't an auto-attack reliant hero does jackshit for 4/5/6 seconds! ). Wraith Kings ult removes a skill from the game you'd otherwise need ( are you prone to dying all the time? just come back to life with your built-in aegis of the immortal! forget learning how to take roshan! ). Zeus's ult removes a skill from the game you'd otherwise need ( forgot to buy a TP scroll to teleport into that team fight? or maybe you're just bad at securing kills? no problem, just press R and get a free double kill and simultaneously provide vision of the last 3 enemies that you didn't buy wards to see ).

Furthermore, 4 out of the 6 abilities I compared it to are ultimates, which means the fact that they seem OP or "easy" is because that's the entire point: it's an ultimate. It's SUPPOSED to do something that is highly impactful.
May 31 2016, 6:31 am
u tell em !
May 31 2016, 7:17 am
Tracer can still rape a mcree even tho mcree is pure anti tracer.

Even though widow has wall hax doesnt mean you still can't get the jump on people ;).

Besides there is at least one good thing for the people who don't like overwatch game.

The overwatch porn.
May 31 2016, 7:43 am
In response to EmpirezTeam
Antimage blink has a small cast time in which it can be interrupted, he's also squishy and a single stun or silence is long enough in most cases to kill him.

Slardars ult is situational. Only good if you can use it before they go invisible (while a ward or dust will effect invisible units).

Wraith Kings ult is situational and is easy to counter. It's got a long cooldown early game, it doesn't let you do whatever you want as you can be killed twice, and it has a mana cost so they can just burn your mana (or you can do it yourself accidentally).

Zeus ult isn't a guaranteed kill, especially late game. It can also be countered with invisibility or magic immunity.

But these aren't even accurate comparisons. A more accurate comparison would be like a hero who could toggle true sight for his entire team that also allowed his team to see the enemies position on the map no matter what.
Such a thing does not exist in DotA 2. The closest is Zeus ult which as I said, can be countered and is only 3 seconds of vision (on a 90s cooldown). It doesn't replace the need for wards. Widowmakers ult replaces the need to learn the map or enemy position due to such a huge duration and very little downtime.
May 31 2016, 9:09 am
Pointing out each one of their abilities can be countered doesn't change the fact that those abilities make doing certain things considerably easier. Sure, Wraith King can't benefit from his ult if there's a Phantom Lancer with Diffusal Blade, but not every enemy team is going to have Phantom Lancer on it.

Widowmaker is squishy as well. She's also a high risk, high reward character since her scoped rate of fire means if she doesn't get the kill, all she's done is give away her position for nothing. Her bullet trails allow you to pinpoint exactly where she's firing from with ease, which being able to fire from an unknown position is what snipers revolve around. I can't recall a match in which I wasn't able to figure out where an enemy Widowmaker was. This means she's constantly under threat of enemy flanks and also, similar to Bastion, is reliant on her teammates creating a distraction for her. Without assistance, she fires one shot and then has to run for the hills because at least 2 or 3 people saw the bullet trail and are making a beeline straight for her.

Your claim that her ult just makes the game an ez no brainer win is not as legit as you're making it out to be. If that's the case, get 5 friends, pick Widowmaker, and just chain your ults so you can get a minute and a half of wall hacks, and let me know how that strategy goes against an enemy team that isn't completely retarded.
May 31 2016, 10:43 am
Hanzo-
Has a 10 second widowmaker's ult.
Has Aimbotting curving in mid air arrows that somehow misses someone but registers as a headshot.
Has an ult that can kill you in spawn from across the map

not to mention he's a sniper without the draw backs of a sniper in modern fps

Like he gets to keep his peripheral vision<- allows him to be effective at range and close quarters

He can climb walls without a cool down. Mor eeffective to getting high places than widow maker since her grapple has a long arse cool down.

His "reload animation" is non existent basically e.e.

Hanzo > Widowmaker
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