But I gave examples showing how the obsession with getting all the kills and doing all the damage is prevalent outside of the MOBA community, so this is larger than "Dota players don't understand how supports work". You can find this mindset in WoW, CS:GO, Guild Wars 2, Call of Duty, etc. If this is just purely a situation of Dota 2 players being ignorant, how do you explain the higher popularity of high DPS roles in WoW and Guild Wars 2 over healing and tanking? How do you explain people wanting to AWP ( high risk, high reward, bunch of damage ) so much in CS:GO? Why are videos of Pamaj sniping people back to back bringing in more views than videos of the entirety of Optic doing well?
The focus on the individual and making plays rather than the team and cooperation is not exclusive to Dota 2, so an answer like "you suck at support in dota 2" is irrelevant since this is not a Dota 2 issue, it's an issue across multiple games and genres. I just used Dota 2 and League because they are the games I play the most.
EmpirezTeam wrote:
how do you explain the higher popularity of high DPS roles in WoW and Guild Wars 2 over healing and tanking? There are flat out more DPS specs than healing or tank specs combined. Lol. How do you explain people wanting to AWP ( high risk, high reward, bunch of damage ) so much in CS:GO? Because that isn't as much of a risk as you state. AWPing isn't actually that hard, I fucking suck at CSGO I'll be the first to admit but give me an AWP and I'll go 11/4 and be hella proud of myself. Infact I'll elaborate more on this, AWPing inherantly is easier than using other guns UNLESS you're in the 2%. You get to sit miles away in safety AND you have a one-click-kill cannon. For the 98%, this is easy mode. This is where the game is really binary. If I click when they're infront of me, I win. If they get close, I lose. This is why it's the 2% where AWPing is really skillfull, because in that area is where AWPing succesfully becomes INCREDIBLY difficult to pull off. Which completely shuts down your entire argument. The focus on the individual and making plays rather than the team and cooperation is not exclusive to Dota 2, so an answer like "you suck at support in dota 2" is irrelevant since this is not a Dota 2 issue, it's an issue across multiple games and genres. I just used Dota 2 and League because they are the games I play the most. Again, I agree with your sentiment, but your examples are shoddy. I wouldn't have singled out anything, really, because it doesn't matter if you go support, top, mid, adc, jungle, awp, tazer, knife or EVEN fountain guard. You're still always trying to prove to everyone that you're the best, and that saddens me. | |
Rushnut wrote:
EmpirezTeam wrote: In GW2 there's an equal distribution of specs for each class. The last update they just did pretty much made it so each class can do everything. Guess what one of the most popular classes was? It was when they gave Guardians, who were previously tanks and supports, a ranged DPS spec. This proves that quantity has nothing to do with it. Even when given an equal amount of opportunities to play support or tank oriented roles, players will play the damage roles. You could give WoW 5 new healing specs, people would not use them. How do you explain people wanting to AWP ( high risk, high reward, bunch of damage ) so much in CS:GO? Lel. If AWPing wasn't hard and risky in ANY of the skill levels, there'd be no reason to use any other weapon in the game. When people can afford to buy AWPs ( a weapon you claim is super easy ) and still purchase AK/M4, I wonder why that is. Hmm, maybe it could be the risk involved of purchasing a weapon that will put you at a great disadvantage if you happen to make one slight mistake? PERHAPS? Again, I agree with your sentiment, but your examples are shoddy. My examples are not shoddy. You both take my examples, refer to one small group of players and say "that isn't true, this handful of players over here don't do it!" My examples have constantly referred to the majority of players. The majority of players who pick up an AWP are going to screw it up regardless of skill level. People don't start learning how to punish you for buying it at the top 2%, it's literally impossible to even climb that far without understanding the AWP and how to counter it. | |
This frog is out for blood.
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Last time I played GW2, there wasn't particularly any defined class roles.
Every class had DPS and (self) healing. I don't particularly remember there being a dedicated healer or tank class. Guardian came close but that is all I can remember. Fact of the matter is, in every single MMO I have ever played, there is more DPS classes than tank and healing classes combined. If class distribution is equal in these games, naturally DPS is the most played class because 90% of available classes are DPS classes... http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/ statsglobal-classesrepartition-0-0.html Just decided to do a bit of research. Outside of Hunter the Druid, Paladin, Warrior, Death Knight and Priest classes are all played more than any DPS class. These are all classes that can fulfil the tank or healer role. | |
Funny how he asserts you need to be a high skill level at a game in order to form a valid opinion of a game, then voices his opinion on a game he admitted to sucking at. It must be an EU scrub region thing. Don't worry, maybe Fnatic and Origen will bring the victory home in season 6.
Who are we kidding? Faker will continue shoving his needlessly large rod up the rectums of whatever trash teams EU manages to produce until you all realize you need to go practice in bot games some more before facing the unkillable demon king. Hashtag mega rekt. | |
The Magic Man wrote:
Last time I played GW2, there wasn't particularly any defined class roles. There aren't class roles or a holy trinity in GW2, but you can still spec your particular character to prioritize damage, support, or tank/bunkering. Most people do not play bunker, tank, or support. They run around as thieves, warriors, burst damage elementalists, burst damage mesmers, and now with the Dragonhunter Guardian spec, people are using Guardians ( supposed to be a support or bunker spec ) and using them as ranged DPS. I logged into the game after the update just to see how things were shaping up. In the map chat I asked everyone "so which new class is the best", people were immediately responding "DRAGONHUNTER IS SO OP!", "OMG DRAGONHUNTER! THE DAMAGE!", "DRAGONHUNTER OBVIOUSLY!" Bear in mind, there was a healing spec given to Hunters ( who were originally a DPS class ) called Druid. No one mentioned Druid in the chat. Furthermore, I had not encountered a Druid during my time back in the game, but saw plenty of Dragonhunters running around. Just face it. There's almost never a time where support and tanking is FotM. For that to happen, it always requires either a professional player to make a ginormous play on a support ( 6 million dollar echo ) or for the developers to buff the tanks to ridiculously stupid levels of OP ( initial cinderhulk patch which did things like make Sejuani go from being subpar to virtually invincible ). And even when these buffs roll out for the other roles, people still MAINLY play the assassins and carries, "hoard all the kills and gold for myself" roles more often than the tanks and supports. People have always and will always favor the flashy kill classes. Whatever does the most damage. Whatever hits the hardest. It's funny. In a game called "Guild Wars 2", keyword here being GUILD, people make more videos on YouTube about how to SOLO in World vs World pvp than they do playing WvW with your guild. Once again, necessity vs interest. You don't have to join a guild to participate or do well in WvW. There are videos of like, 1 player taking on 3 other players trying to kill him and winning the fight by himself ( WITH BURST DAMAGE BUILDS ). GW2 gives you the opportunity to play a variety of different ways, more than WoW provides, and people still focus on which strategy nets them the most kill streaks. Then you have the rest of the community that actually plays the bunker, or plays the specs like Druid which emphasize enabling teammates to get the kills rather than yourself. You keep changing the reason why people don't play supports every time you leave a new post, which leads me to believe you have no idea what the reason actually is. First you said the reason is the because the developers designed the roles to be boring. Then you said it's because players are incompetent and they don't play those roles because they don't understand them. Now you're referring to the quantity of the roles and saying no one plays support because there's an overwhelming amount of DPS roles in every game. I'm curious to hear what your fourth and fifth and sixth random reason will be. Fact of the matter is, in every single MMO I have ever played, there is more DPS classes than tank and healing classes combined. If class distribution is equal in these games, naturally DPS is the most played class because 90% of available classes are DPS classes... All those classes you just named can also fulfill the DPS role, and in PvP, they most often do. People start off spec'd as tank Druid or tank Pally or tank DK and Warrior ( for the sole purpose of faster queue times ), then hit level cap and re-spec back into a DPS role so they can one-shot everyone and pretend to be Reckful. No matter how you try to spin it, the vast majority of players are self-centered and only care about their personal performance and KDA. There are very few players who actually play online games like they are online games and value roles like support and tank which forces you to put less emphasis on you as an individual and more focus on you as part of a team. Which, I don't really care. I'm not trying to police players and tell them which classes to play, but rather I'm confused as to why so many people play online games when they clearly are not really there to be with or cooperate with other people. It's not about the game being designed this way or that way or a player being this good or that good. This is a matter of personality. You have gamers who say "I don't care if I do bad, I just want to win" and another set of gamers who say "I don't care if I win, I just want a really good KDA and be the 'star' of the team because it's all about me." | |
Perhaps you failed to read my elaboration on AWPing.
Infact I'll elaborate more on this, AWPing inherantly is easier than using other guns UNLESS you're in the 2%. You get to sit miles away in safety AND you have a one-click-kill cannon. For the 98%, this is easy mode. This is where the game is really binary. If I click when they're infront of me, I win. If they get close, I lose. This is why it's the 2% where AWPing is really skillfull, because in that area is where AWPing succesfully becomes INCREDIBLY difficult to pull off. Which completely shuts down your entire argument. | |
"People don't start learning how to punish you for buying it at the top 2%, it's literally impossible to even climb that far without understanding the AWP and how to counter it."
These two statements contradict each other. "Funny how he asserts you need to be a high skill level at a game in order to form a valid opinion of a game, then voices his opinion on a game he admitted to sucking at. It must be an EU scrub region thing. Don't worry, maybe Fnatic and Origen will bring the victory home in season 6." No, I said YOU need to be better because your lack of understand of game design leads you to make the wrong assumptions and wrong statements. I believe you being better at said games would help you understand more, but I myself actually already understand and I didn't need my hand being held when I was gold, and I don't need my hand being held now. Seriously. Sit back for 10 minutes, and write out a good explanation as to why AWPing is hard for low Elo. Go use internet sources (You won't find many, I already checked) to support your claim, make a solid case. Actually fuckin' go out of your way to learn something for once instead of automatically assuming you're right then just scooping random shit off the walls and flinging it in an attempt to save face. Go, do it, I'll fuckin' wait. | |
I play them to feel powerful and dominate other players. I only play games that allow me to exert some form of control over the other players or the world. I don't mean in a sadist sort of way but more of a imperial governance type thing.
That's why I don't even bother with single player games, because my actions don't affect real people in them. I don't know of any games that let a player rule the world with an iron fist, but if there was I'd like to try it. Darkfall Unholy Wars (an MMO) has that actually but it has so many other flaws it isn't worth it. Some next level grinding in that game. | |
Rushnut wrote:
Perhaps you failed to read my elaboration on AWPing. I didn't fail to read it, you just failed to make any sense. AWPing is a major part of the game. Being able to use an AWP as well as counter an AWP are just as important as something like knowing how to counter specific team comps in League, and you will not climb to the 2% ( the place where you're convinced is the rank people know how to use the weapon ) without having said knowledge. In other words, it gets difficult to use an AWP long before the 2% and you will get consistently shit on and never climb until you start smoking , you stop peaking around corners like an idiot, and you realize you can get shot behind thin objects. You suck at the game and therefore cannot form an opinion on it hurr durr. | |
You are insufferably unintelligent, for the record I'm Global Elite on CSGO (I just wanted to bait you into using that against me, it amused me.).
You're bad and you'll stay bad until you realize why you're bad and stop blaming the games for your own incompetence. It's a shame you wouldn't listen to my advice literally ever and just came up with random arguments with no basis, grounds or factual reasoning, because maybe if you'd learn to listen to someone for once in your life you'd become less of an unsufferable retard. I believe it was somepotato who posted the "Hurr I'm being retarded" - "Fuck off, retard" - "Haha jokes on you I was only PRETENDING" comic, but it very accurately sums you up. The quicker you come to realize that your humor is nothing more than appealing to the lowest common denominator and the quicker you realize how unintelligent and generally bad you are, maybe you'll progress into something meaningful worth of social interaction. Kindly fuck off to my banlist, and don't come back. - Drops the mic. | |
Rushnut wrote:
These two statements contradict each other. They don't, you just have trouble reading. You learn how to use and counter an AWP before you reach the top 2% of the player base. Therefore there is no one in the top 2% who doesn't know what the hell an AWP is and how to deal with a player using one. What's contradicting about this? No, I said YOU need to be better because your lack of understand of game design leads you to make the wrong assumptions and wrong statements. I believe you being better at said games would help you understand more, but I myself actually already understand and I didn't need my hand being held when I was gold, and I don't need my hand being held now. Mhmm. Seriously. Sit back for 10 minutes, and write out a good explanation as to why AWPing is hard for low Elo. Go use internet sources (You won't find many, I already checked) to support your claim, make a solid case. Actually fuckin' go out of your way to learn something for once instead of automatically assuming you're right then just scooping random shit off the walls and flinging it in an attempt to save face. Yeah I'm going to explain common sense to you for the umpteenth time so you can reply with "you suck at the game, you have no idea what you're talking about, only I do". NTY. Go, do it, I'll fuckin' wait. You seem to be getting emotional. Being a crybaby must be an EU thing. Maybe if you and Rekkles pool your tears together, you can then bottle the tears and provide kids in Africa with drinking water. | |
Rushnut wrote:
You are insufferably unintelligent, for the record I'm Global Elite on CSGO (I just wanted to bait you into using that against me, it amused me.). Sure. You start off saying you suck at the game to prove a point when it's convenient, then say you're god tier at a game to prove another point when it's convenient. I'm sure you're also one of the top 10 WoW players in the world too. Oh and before we bring Hearthstone into the discussion, I'm sure you're Legendary rank in that, and don't tell me, let me guess: you're Grand Master League in Starcraft 2 right? You're so damn good at games, Rushnut. It's no wonder recruiters have been knocking your door down. Owait. You're bad and you'll stay bad until you realize why you're bad and stop blaming the games for your own incompetence. Except the thread isn't about incompetence, and the only reason I mention yours is because I like mocking your silly remarks. It asked a simple question that you failed to answer, and because you couldn't come up with a coherent answer, you turned this into a discussion about my skill level in League ( which I promptly proved was irrelevant with a legitimate example, something you haven't done at all ) and then after you realized that wasn't coherent, you got angry some more and started spewing lies in order to save face ( you know, that thing you accused me of doing ). It's a shame you wouldn't listen to my advice literally ever and just came up with random arguments with no basis, grounds or factual reasoning, because maybe if you'd learn to listen to someone for once in your life you'd become less of an unsufferable retard. You don't give advice, you type insults and lies and then when you get called out on the insults and lies you call me a retard for not caring about anything you just said. I believe it was somepotato who posted the "Hurr I'm being retarded" - "Fuck off, retard" - "Haha jokes on you I was only PRETENDING" comic, but it very accurately sums you up. It was actually SecretCake who said that. But don't worry, I won't knock you for being wrong again. Apparently it's something you have no control over. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if you and SecretCake were the same person or at least close friends. You behave almost the exact same way, and we already concluded whoever the "SecretCake" user was had been using an alternate account... interesting... The quicker you come to realize that your humor is nothing more than appealing to the lowest common denominator and the quicker you realize how unintelligent and generally bad you are, maybe you'll progress into something meaningful worth of social interaction. If you were interested in meaningful social interaction, you would've attempted to discuss the topic at hand, instead of things like my personal skill level, or better yet, your imaginary high rankings in online games. You weren't here to have a meaningful social interaction. You and other select users have a hard on for me and look for any and every opportunity to try and "prove I'm a shitposter" as if you're getting paid a salary to do it. You didn't come here to talk, you came here because you're starving for my attention like several other weirdos on this site. Like Jesus Christ, if you want the D just say you want the D, there's no reason to express your thirst for me in such hostile ways. Kindly fuck off to my banlist, and don't come back. In the highly unlikely event that you actually do put me on your banlist I'm sure you'll take me back off it because I'm 100% certain you can't resist the urge to be noticed by Empirez-sama. | |
Tens of DU wrote:
I play them to feel powerful and dominate other players. I only play games that allow me to exert some form of control over the other players or the world. I don't mean in a sadist sort of way but more of a imperial governance type thing. First thing that comes to mind are 4X games. A genre I was never able to get into. That's why I don't even bother with single player games, because my actions don't affect real people in them. I think EVE is supposed to be really good in terms of your decisions or actions being substantial to the game as a whole. Also GW2 and Planetside 2 feature constant struggles over territory so if you're doing well in those games you can sort of get that "dominion" feeling over the losing factions. However most of the time you only win because your zerg is larger than the enemy zerg so it's just a matter of who can pump out more dudes at any given time so even when you capture a new point or area at the end of the day games like League might give a stronger feeling of satisfaction. | |
I think this thread pretty accurately sums up why some people don't like being social on the internet.
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Clearly you all need to play Lego Marvel, that game requires real skill.
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MisterPerson wrote:
I think this thread pretty accurately sums up why some people don't like being social on the internet. Apparently it's because people don't like being pointed out that they're wrong. This video, made by a real Global Elite and not a compulsive liar on the BYOND forums named "Rushnut", contradicts everything Rushnut said and confirmed what I said. Rushnut argued that the AWP is an easy weapon, that you can suck at the game and still breeze your way through the entire game until you reach the top 2% of the rankings. WarOwl states that the weapon is a highly skilled weapon, and that people train for "immeasurable amounts of time" in order to master it. He also points out that there are disadvantages to the weapon making it a situational purchase, and that the M4/AK is better in certain scenarios, which is what I said. A person who actually made it to Global Elite and not a poser on the BYOND forums mentioned nothing about the gun being super easy mode pre-Global Elite or carrying very little risk. He says every player should know how to use the AWP and how to counter it. If knowledge of the AWP is essential to climbing the ranks, Rushnut's assertion that it only gets hard to use the weapon in the top 2% is yet again a lie because people must have already had knowledge of the AWP and its counters prior to entering the top 2% ( which means the difficulty of using the AWP would've already been increasing long before you reached the highest ranks ). Rushnut just has a hard-on for me like multiple users on this site and types things contrary to what I say in an attempt to "prove Empirez wrong once and for all!" It's just that this time he got so frustrated trying to come up with lies to support the other lies that he told that eventually he ran out of lies completely, dropped some f-bombs to make himself seem more serious, put me on his banlist, and declared himself the victor. I'd rather make conclusions based off my own experiences and someone I can confirm is actually knowledgeable as opposed to listening to misinformation spewed from someone who gets an adrenaline rush from trying to defeat me in an argument. Just figured I'd clear up some things so no one here tries CS:GO for the first time, buys an AWP, and thinks they're going to get killing sprees right off the bat. Don't listen to the baby: the AWP is a weapon that requires hours of practice to hone speed and accuracy, and knowledge of the game and map itself to know how to play the role correctly, and you will be forced to do said practice and gain said knowledge before you reach an extremely high rank. You might get away with not knowing the spray pattern of a Bizon, but being ignorant of the AWP and role of an AWPer is going to make the game very inconvenient for you. I think he may be getting CS:GO confused with Call of Duty. This is not Call of Duty. You don't just open the game and shoot people and voila, you're on your way to the top 2%. That's how Call of Duty works, not Counter Strike. This game will punish you for underestimating how complex it is very hard and very fast. But we're not here for AWPs, we're here to talk about social tendencies and personality types of people playing MMOs! :D | |
Well the point I was making was that two people who agree with each other can get into an argument about something stupid and irrelevant. Nobody likes getting into arguments, so why stick your neck out at all? That's why some people don't get into social aspects of online games.
As to why they might avoid in-game cooperation, that probably has more to do with people liking the game but not being good at it than anything else. | |
However, as skill increases, supports become more common. At 2000-3000 MMR (the most populated bracket), there is 3 supports in the top 10, the next bracket up has 3-4 depending on your definition and the one above that has 3-5 depending on your definition.
Considering support heroes are suppose to be boring, they're consistently one of the most played roles in the game at all skill levels. Even if you just look at most played heroes in the entire game, there is 2 supports in the top 10.
What we can deduce from this is simple. Bad players don't understand supports. They probably cannot make plays and see the role as boring due to this. As a players skill increases, not only does he understand the importance of supports even more, but he also realizes there is much more to playing them than he'd originally believed.
Which I suspect is your problem. You're bad at the game and don't really understand a lot about supports or how they should properly be played (hint: if you sit in lane next to your carry for 20 minutes doing nothing, you're doing it wrong, support is the most active role early game). Naturally you'd find them boring to play as because you simply don't know how to play them properly.