ID:1894666
 
Good afternoon!

I would like to gather ideas on making a more "realistic yet still fun" gathering and crafting system.

In wilderness survival, one cannot carry 50 logs, 4 wooden walls, 99 rocks, and a toothbrush. Carrying a decent sized log usually requires both hands and can use a good amount of energy. Of course, resting after carrying each log a certain distance is not fun, so lets ignore the energy usage.

Gathering


I want to address the amount of items in which a player can carry and how to go about crafting an item. My idea was to have a player chop down a tree, gather leaves and branches into a handy-made backpack, and use both hands to carry one log to your campground. Then go back to the fallen tree and get the other log. The controls and HUD would need to be perfect in order to ease the switching between carrying one item and carrying two.

Crafting


In order to craft a certain item you need to place all gathered items into one tile on the map. When you hover over the gathered items a a list of possible crafted items will appear. Click one to build it.

I was wondering if this idea would become too tedious? Tool building is relatively painless, but building a shelter would not. Remember, the goal is realistic wilderness survival.
Tedium is a big part of enforcing limitations on the player and keeping the world hostile. You need to be careful to not turn players away by enforcing too much tedium, but you also need to be careful to make tasks difficult enough to ensure that survival is not trivial.

Take a look at Cataclysm: DDA. It's the single best zombie survival game I've ever played, and the way they handle inventory management is simultaneously realistic and fair to the player.

The thing that makes Cataclysm DDA such a great example is that the consequences aren't trivial. You CAN lift that shopping cart, but you can't walk around with it. You CAN carry that felled tree, but you aren't going very far. You CAN walk around with a fridge-load of tinned beans, but you aren't going to be able to outrun any zombies you find along the way.

Cataclysm also offers the player lots of options to overcome these limitations by tying carry weight limits to the strength statistic, and also by giving the player the ability to use tools to modify their carrying capacities. You wind up relying on wheelbarrows and shopping carts early in the game to haul your crap, and unloading a lot of your spare crap into a base of operations that you've carved out for yourself.

You start to realize though that this reliance is actually a liability: It restricts you to surviving off of tinned beans, which are only found in cities. The shopping cart doesn't roll too well on soft earth, so you need to stick to roads. Unfortunately, the densest concentration of zombies are also where all your survival rations are, and the more crap you have on you, the harder it is to dodge their attacks and survive.

So you decide to move out to the country. Well, that's problematic because you need to haul around huge trees to make a log cabin, and you need to grow your own food or hunt wild animals just to survive. Unfortunately you can't manufacture gasoline, so you eventually run out of fuel for your truck and need to go raid a city for fuel. Only living on your own has made you psychologically weak to dealing with Zs.

C:DDA is a great exploration of the problems of being a lone survivor in a zombie apocalypse and offering the player a true sandbox experience. Give it a shot and see what you can learn from it.
Thank you Ter13 for the recommendation and insight.

I remember coming across Cataclysm: DDA a year or two ago and hearing nothing but great reviews. I'm going to give it a try today. Thanks again!
In response to Ter13
Unrelated, but C:DDA completely butchered Whales' original vision of the game. Not to mention the Kickstarter a while back was made without his consent or even knowing.

From what I've seen the past years, all they do is add wacky new shit instead of fixing old shit.
As for what I'd suggest, I'd look at actions based on a couple of different categories:

1) Fatigue (mental exhaustion)
2) Caloric cost (physical exhaustion)
3) Active Time (time the player is involved in the process)
4) Inactive Time (time the process takes independent of action)
5) Noise Level

If you look at tasks with these five components, you can actually make some really good decisions that will increase player fun while also increasing the hostility of the world.

First, let's look at mental exhaustion. Players that spend too long mentally exhausted find themselves easily distracted and have a harder time succeeding at tasks. They are more likely to make trivial mistakes and to fall ill. They are more prone to not seeing traps and enemies sneaking up on them. They are also less able to sustain physical activity for long periods of time. Maintaining mental exhaustion can be done through getting enough sleep/rest, enjoying highly satisfying food, sitting near a fire, listening to an MP3 player, unwinding with some alcohol, cigarettes, meth or heroin (these have consequences), popping some xanax, or just having a good conversation with a fellow survivor.

Next, let's look at physical exhaustion. Food is important to being able to do work. If you are weak from hunger, work is harder. Physical activity is increasingly difficult and your strength suffers. You get sick easily, and you aren't able to swing a weapon as well to defend yourself. More than food, GOOD FOOD is important. A diet of twinkies is going to give you a lot of sugar and fat, but if you don't get protein and vitamins you don't get the right kind of nutrients to rebuild damage done to your body and really give you the fuel you need to do work. Caloric density is also important. A diet of celery is going to be filling and satisfying, but it's not going to give you good energy for work. Meanwhile, peanut butter is high in protein and fat, and really lightweight. It's great for instant on-demand work energy production.

Time costs are next. Active time deprives the player of doing something else while something is done. Chopping down a tree is all active time. From start to finish, the job only gets done as long as the player is actively doing the job. This naturally limits what players can do to survive simply by making players prioritize their time.

Inactive time, on the other hand deprives the player of space. For instance, planting a seed is a small task. Watering a seed is a small task, but beyond that, you have to let crops grow simply by leaving them alone. In order to produce enough food to survive, you need to plant lots of seeds and then put your energy into preserving the food so that you can keep eating months after the harvest. Inactive time can also be used to ensure that players use more resources if they want to expand their operation. Making dried meat, for instance requires a smoker. The player would have to wait 8-24 in-game hours to smoke a few pounds of meat before smoking more unless they build a second smoker. Unfortunately, the smoker requires a lot of resources and all that smoke could very well attract other survivors or Zs.

Noise: Noise is important for zombie survival games. Noise should attract Zs. The more noise a task makes, the riskier it should be for the player to do. In other words, tasks that involve a lot of noise are risky for players who can't easily defend themselves, so it actually creates an added hostility to tasks that are necessary for survival. This also has the added benefit of allowing you to ensure that players who industrialize too fast and thus make survival really ridiculously easy face new challenges by way of attracting a sea of Zs to their compound.
In response to Doohl
Doohl wrote:
Unrelated, but C:DDA completely butchered Whales' original vision of the game. Not to mention the Kickstarter a while back was made without his consent or even knowing.

From what I've seen the past years, all they do is add wacky new shit instead of fixing old shit.

Agreed. Such is the problem of fans taking over for a shared open source project. Also, apparently the kickstarter funds were not used as promised and didn't result in the features promised.
fuck ter you make me want to make a zombie roguelike
In response to Doohl
Doohl wrote:
fuck ter you make me want to make a zombie roguelike

Abandoned severed. The future is ASCII. ;P