I'm sorry I came off negatively, I was just curious what games they currently had in mind for the webclient, it seems they're focused on SS13 with it, but will any of those devs actually do anything with it?
| |
We were just testing with SS13 because it has a lot of players and we wanted to see performance under load. Now we're doing some testing with WANO & Doohl, because they are specifically targeting the webclient for their new game.
Our goal is for the webclient to completely replace DS so that we don't have to maintain two code bases. In order for this to work, it will need to perform better, which has been the focus of Lummox JR's work the last two weeks. We'll be pushing out an update very shortly that should show some improvements. Once it is functionally in a good place-- which may take some time yet-- we'll put more work into aesthetics like the custom splash screen and better resource loading. Keep in mind that replacing DS doesn't mean abandoning any games, because the idea is that all of these games will work pretty much the same way once we provide a standalone exe launcher. The advantage is that the games-- both existing and new-- will be cross-platform and, of course, web-embeddable. If the devs make an effort to market them, they should be able to get a lot more traffic via social network embedding. | |
Lummox JR wrote:
Oh, I think there's plenty of reason to port games and to start developing fully-fledged games with it. It's an excellent head start for when the webclient is out of beta, and it also helps show up any potential issues so they can be dealt with. I suppose you're right, I personally don't feel it's time just yet at least for my own project. I get your point though makes total sense. NNAAAAHH write: I'm sorry I came off negatively, I was just curious what games they currently had in mind for the webclient, it seems they're focused on SS13 with it, but will any of those devs actually do anything with it? That's ok, perhaps I read your post incorrectly or perceived it wrong.. I think focusing on SS13 is a plus, the game is huge, is very popular and would be a great platform for testing different aspects of the web clients features/functionality. | |
Tom wrote:
As far as the customization of the hub pages themselves, while we won't return to the myspace-esque control we had back in the day, we could probably (at some point) provide a limited amount of styling (maybe colors or a background image). plsss | |
Is 1246 the build with performance increase or is that yet to come?
| |
1275 has the first round of performance increases.
| |
This is really exciting I can't wait until the web client is a very valuable option. You guys seem to be doing all the things I want. Thank you so much for your hard work!
| |
Web client? That's great news! Except... it's 2015... and still beta...
I just censored myself from writing one of the biggest negative posts about this site and its "business" strategies it had over the past 10 years. However, I'm well aware that this type of feedback is what Byond and its staff doesn't want to hear. I won't be that guy summarizing Byond's history book "What is Byond and how it ran an introverted Darknet for +10 years" because we all know what happened. Simply put, the project was too big for two developers and maintaining it properly for growth was impossible. What I will say is this. Tom, I just read your post about open sourcing the project. You finally see that it is inevitable, that Byond cannot sustain itself any longer. What I don't understand is, why now? Why now do you see what some of us already did prior in the mid-late 2000s. "I told you so" isn't going to cut it here from us. You think you're sick of that statement? Everyone who left and requested it to be community driven has left already. We left with disappointment and disgust at what "business" brought to Byond. Byond was an aging passion project that could have been revitalized into something else by the open source community. Now it's just a tainted and deserted relic. For a few years now, it's no longer aging, but it's simply dead and out of the scope of interest. You lost nearly a decade of community patches and development people would have offered. You and your soulless following once told me back in 2006, why it would never see cross-platform support. I paraphrase, it would be too cumbersome and an entire rewrite; let alone being too embarrassed of legacy code if ever open sourced. Now I'm telling you, open sourcing the project, now, in 2015-2016, the same thing, but only because the interest from tinkering has disappeared. It would be too cumbersome to take a project like this, when it would just be a lot better/easier to recreate it from scratch. That being said, wanting to repeat another Byond, is too disgraceful to even utter. These words are harsh to say, but a façade of hope isn't going to save Byond at this point. Not even open sourcing it. If you think so, then may I ask, to whom? | |
So that's not the big negative rant? I don't understand the extreme vitriol here, or what you're basing it on. (And some of your information is grossly inaccurate; BYOND is not going open-source.) Anyway most of it seems far outside the context of this thread. Seriously though, that's a lot of pent-up hate with no apparent source.
To answer the one substantive point, the reason the webclient is still in beta is that it has a lot of parts, and it is not the only thing that has demanded my time. It's ongoing, but it's already extremely capable and will be more so with the next round of optimizations. The webclient is very cross-platform, a huge breakthrough in reach that simply wasn't possible with the tools available in 2006. This is also well beyond what we originally hoped for the webclient, which was intended to be a lot more limited but now covers almost the full functionality of DS. | |
Lummox JR wrote:
So that's not the big negative rant? I don't understand the extreme vitriol here, or what you're basing it on. (And some of your information is grossly inaccurate; BYOND is not going open-source.) Anyway most of it seems far outside the context of this thread. Seriously though, that's a lot of pent-up hate with no apparent source. No, the rant was snipped, heavily. It proved to be too much of a bother, but so is this one so I'll leave this one as my last input. Writing something of this size isn't large, and I'm sorry if honest criticism is perceived as "vitriol" this day and age of Byond. Read "Future Plans" from Tom. http://www.byond.com/forum/?post=1784423 Either you guys are not on the same page, or his statements are a contradiction. This isn't a new post, but it is for someone like myself who hasn't been around for years. As for the "we didn't have the tools back in 2006". Yes, because that's the excuse every developer loves to claim. Just because you didn't know of those tools, didn't mean those tools didn't exist. If it was open sourced back then, people would have found those tools for you. Well I can tell you so far, about your web client. No *hinting* command-line tool for games with broken verb tabs/commands that don't list, games that don't load correctly, basic functionality that was intentionally ripped out for non-members (be a member, get fullscreen, really? I'm a member still and I find that laughable. Btw, you didn't implement the stripped version out right for non-members. There's a workaround in plain sight.) You can say it's cross-platform, but the tools are not. What would the point in me exclusively playing games anymore when I prefer to create things? Anyway, chop it up how you like. You want to perceive my post as a flaming mad man? Fine. My prerogative wasn't to convince you my feelings, but my interests (or lack of). | |
Neblim wrote:
Writing something of this size isn't large, and I'm sorry if honest criticism is perceived as "vitriol" this day and age of Byond. It's not perception; your post dripped with venom. Honest criticism is well-sourced and when it's brutal, it's never pointlessly so. Also it doesn't come out of the blue like that. There's a lot of froth in your posts and I truly have no idea where the hate is coming from. Read "Future Plans" from Tom. http://www.byond.com/forum/?post=1784423 That post said that if BYOND were to fold, it'd go open-source to avoid the software simply going away. That's not happening now or in the near future. Further in the future, of course it's impossible to predict what may come. Tom's point was that whatever happens in the future, we plan not to leave users high and dry, so that the games they've developed can continue. He did not say that we're open-sourcing right now. As for the "we didn't have the tools back in 2006". Yes, because that's the excuse every developer loves to claim. Just because you didn't know of those tools, didn't mean those tools didn't exist. If it was open sourced back then, people would have found those tools for you. I'm referring specifically to multi-platform support as allowed by the webclient, which wasn't possible--with such a wide degree of legacy game support--before modern browsers. It was never feasible to bring the frontend to the Mac or to Linux in Dream Seeker form. Even if open-sourcing had been feasible at the time, and it wasn't, the complexity of the work would have been overwhelming. And that's even more so after the transition to skins, which was already underway at the time. Well I can tell you so far, about your web client. No *hinting* command-line tool for games with broken verb tabs/commands that don't list, games that don't load correctly, basic functionality that was intentionally ripped out for non-members (be a member, get fullscreen, really? I'm a member still and I find that laughable. Btw, you didn't implement the stripped version out right for non-members. There's a workaround in plain sight.) The parsing stuff doesn't tell you when a command has been entered incorrectly, although it does handle command completion (hinting); more detailed error messages such as verb format info could be added, but it was not deemed important. But that's a nitpick, so if that's your main issue I'm encouraged. As for the fullscreen/expansion thing, that's available to everyone; I'm not sure where you got the idea that it wasn't. There is no distinction in functionality between member and non-member, except that non-members get ads. But I still say your level of anger doesn't make any sense, at least not without some context to explain where you're coming from. The statement that BYOND should have gone open source years ago and would be supported on all/most platforms by now (as far as I can tell that's the locus of your ire) simply isn't true. I can think of many, many reasons it wouldn't have worked out the way you seem to think. In all honesty and no offense intended, you don't know what you don't know. One of my long-term plans is to push the project in a direction where partial open-sourcing is more feasible in the future, because open source is not without merit and there may be a benefit down the line to having more of the software accessible. (And in fact, complete open-sourcing of the webclient itself is planned.) I don't think any news at this point would make you happy, but development takes the course it takes for a reason, and I don't think there'd be so much anger here if you understood the reasons. But while I'm baffled by the intensity, you're entitled to your opinions and I wish you well wherever you go next. | |
He did not say that we're open-sourcing right now. For what it's worth, open-sourcing the (entire) engine as soon as you can isn't a bad idea. To me it seems your throwing away free (volunteer) resources that you could be using to help get stuff done. I know I personally would love to dig in and fix up this engine. But whatever, I don't own the engine so I don't really have any say in what happens to it. | |
I understand where you're coming from. I felt the same way before I ever saw the source; then I saw it and realized there was just way too much to absorb. Some parts of the source have gotten simpler since then, others less so.
But in principle I agree with you: It'd be nice to open-source the parts that can be handled that way. That's one reason that doing so with the webclient is high on my priority list--since then people can at least mess with the code behind the client end. | |
Lummox JR wrote:
I understand where you're coming from. I felt the same way before I ever saw the source; What is it? The Godzilla of game engines? then I saw it and realized there was just way too much to absorb. and this sounds like the final punch from "Rocky 3". But seriously can you elaborate? Is it too complex "for us" or what? Maybe I am reading this wrong.. | |
My guesses with experience with other semi large game projects in regards to open-source are: The code is a lot bigger than most would think it is, there's a *lot* of code that's supporting older infrastructure, e.g. backwards compatibility, a large extent of it may not be commented with documentation to support the source, and there could be a lot of code that's a mess or duck taped together to make things function.
That's not to say Lummox or Tom are bad coders by any means but just that with large and 'aged' projects there can be a lot of things under the hood that people may not be aware of. On the plus side, the nice thing about open-source if the community invests in it the way that they keep claiming they will is that you have a community that is analyzing, documenting and improving the code base with a potentially far greater combined knowledge set with very little cost to Byond itself. | |
Drakemoore wrote:
My guesses with experience with other semi large game projects in regards to open-source are: The code is a lot bigger than most would think it is, there's a *lot* of code that's supporting older infrastructure, e.g. backwards compatibility, a large extent of it may not be commented with documentation to support the source, and there could be a lot of code that's a mess or duck taped together to make things function. A complex source code is a terrible reason not to open source something. There are plenty of very complex open source projects that are difficult to write code for: There's Godot And Blender And let's not forget linux, the pinnacle of complex open-source software Commented code would be nice, but it's by no means required. Even here on BYOND there are tons of rips running around with modified features - and the owner's never commented their code. As for "duck-tape" code - this is probably something additional volunteers could help fix/comment/make better. But in the end it doesn't really matter, I doubt lummox or tom is going to change their mind at the drop of a well-written comment or thread. In the end I simply wanna know why they're not willing to consider open sourcing the (full) engine. Which, if I am lucky - will be answered more clearly by either of them. | |
They could be using libraries or portions of code that are proprietary to previous work they've done, or licensed through another company that prevents them from opening it.
But yeah, I agree that they should at least come out and say 'why' they won't, or don't want to open the source code. | |
The why of it has been discussed on previous threads and isn't something I intend to rehash. To put it most simply, not all parts of the code can be open-sourced, and right now those parts are integrated too much with the rest.
| |
WritingANewOne has been working on a project that's webclient-exclusive. It's severely taxing because the framerate is high and the new optimizations are only partly done, but he and Doohl are doing some really interesting things with it--including creating new controls.