Hello all,
I guess this is a rant more than anything, but it has become a repetition nightmare that I am not happy about. So in the last month I have had three artists two of which are contracted, one written & one by word of mouth ( text ), while the other was just seeing how it goes.
So the contracted one basically goes MIA, haven't heard from him in two months. The second artist ( see how it goes guy ) claims he got a contract and can't anymore. And now the third word of mouth who has a paid contract by me with his own pricing does one icon that I have seen, wants $20 up front , then bails for " another contract ". Just so people know this is the third guy http://www.byond.com/forum/?post=1804648 ( usually I don't shot call people out like that, but it is messed up .
This is not how you should do business, if you cannot complete the task at hand then don't accept the contract. Luckily no money exchanged hands from any of the three, but just be weary of who you hire for jobs if it is a paid contract.
ID:1806098
 Mar 9 2015, 1:53 pm
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Thats with anything thats why with my business (I shoot music videos) I stopped doing the half here and half later thing I need all money up front and you just have to believe I won't f you over. Which I don't because its my business and I don't want to give my business a bad name.
But back on topic: I was thinking of hiring Hebrons for some buildings glad I didn't! | |
@Ter13
Yeah it can go both ways. It is sad when someone gets burned in a contract, should not happen either way. Artist or Client it is hard to business with people you don't know. | |
There's no way in hell I'm ever paying anyone over the internet the entire amount up front. That's a goddamn scam waiting to happen, especially on this site.
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This is exactly why I turn down most offers that come my way. Mostly, it's because my time isn't worth the $3 an hour I'm usually offered.
The other reasons I turn down work regularly are because when people seek me out, I show them my portfolio of art, and they will ask for "more of the same". I ask questions about what they need, this is the normal response: "Oh, you know, a grass tile, a dirt tile, three or four trees, some bushes, a rock or two, animated water, beach tiles, etc." I ask them about a palette, I recommend a 16 or 32 color pre-generated palette for the entire scene, and they are usually okay with that. Then I sit down, pump out a bunch of work, show them progress snaps, that's when: "It doesn't match my base.". This goes one of two ways: either they ask me to redo their base for them (At which point, I quote a price based on the number of frames.), or they ask me to redo everything I've already done in the style of their base. When I explain that their base has no cohesive color scheme, and doesn't fit the scale of the tiles we previously agreed on, it's a problem that I'm now changing the price, because the trees are four times as big. When I'm asked to quote a price for an animated base with literally hundreds of unique animation frames, it's a problem that a 128-unique frame 32x32 base icon is going to cost them about $300. $500 for 64x64, $700 for 96x96. They think the prices are insane and unreasonable, so I explain that the amount of work is the amount of work. I can't change how many hours it will take to get what they want done, and my time is worth what my time is. I even explain that those prices are with the discount I offer people who offer me large chunks of work. And that's usually where they tell me that they found someone cheaper to get the job done, who 90% of the time winds up being one of the people you mentioned who bails out half way. I tried working it out with a guy once, and he kept changing the terms of the job midway through and lowering the amount we'd already agreed I'd be paid, so I just wound up sending him his money back and eating the time wasted. My advice? Only take jobs or hire people off of BYOND. You get what you pay for. The prices people expect to pay on BYOND are "too good to be true" prices, and frankly most of the time, if something seems too good to be true, it is. | |
I've not offered services on the site, but I have freelanced before. It's hell. People generally don't understand the costs, undervalue the quality and knowledge of the person doing the work, and then select a far cheaper (frequently free) alternative that doesn't meet their requirements, but, hey, it was free! That means that it's better, right? Right?
Related note: Clients From Hell. The site is very cathartic. | |
People generally don't understand the costs, undervalue the quality and knowledge of the person doing the work I've found that to be true everywhere. I haven't only freelanced on this site. Right after I got out of the military, the economy was in the gutter, so while I was repeatedly interviewing at any position even remotely requiring a security clearance, I started freelancing. I got a bunch of work from a guy that ran a local business. It started out as business cards, then moved on to letterhead, mailing labels, flyers, posters, T-shirts and hats, and then I got the mother of all contracts: A 12' billboard at the Langley Speedway. After all of this work, I wound up getting invited to a business lunch in one of the boxes at the speedway and I traded business cards with about a dozen small business owners. I picked up a bunch of work and managed to scrape up about $20,000 worth of work over the course of that summer. But then I picked up two really crazy lucrative jobs. One with a delusional lady that thought she was making the next facebook for Nascar drivers, and one with a printing company. I thought the delusional lady was making a terrible business investment, but she was willing to let me do my thing, and I built a website mock for her then put together a bunch of AJAX-based templates for all of the widgets the site would use, and we got ready to open the site to our group of free users that would wind up being the guinea pigs. So now, I've got this website working based off an SQL backend. She asks me to push the site to her webhost, and I discover there's no SQL and no Node support. I ask if I can get root access so I can install these services only to find out that she's basically hosting this thing off a third party service that is functionally HTML-only. I explain that my site just straight up won't work without a modern hosting plan, and she very obviously doesn't get it. That's when I find out that she's also got a web design business on the side, and that working with Nascar drivers is a new angle for her business. I do a ton of research on this lady's work, and I shit you not, this lady's websites look like they were made in Microsoft Frontpage in 1993. No CSS. No Javascript. No PHP. No database. Raw HTML tables. This lady charges $2,000 a website for local businesses and pumps out work that would have been considered poor by the standards of myspace pages in the mid-90s. I spent another month trying to work this issue out, and after making no headway with her, I just straight up bail out because I can't make further money for the time I'm spending until the website works, and I can't get her to let me make the website work. I prepare an invoice, declare that I've made delivery of the product requested, and request my payment. She makes good on most of it, so I call it even and move on. Needless to say, nobody's making the next facebook for Nascar Drivers, because the next facebook for Nascar Drivers is facebook. The printer worked out totally differently. He lost his in-house graphic designers, so he decided to contract me out and told me that if I'd agree to come on full time, he'd throw more work my way. I agreed to a trial period of 90 days working with him as a pocket freelancer under the agreement that I drop my prices quite a bit if he can bring me a few thousand in work a month. Unfortunately, his work picked up like crazy and he got overwhelmed. Couldn't manage it. I finished five contracts with him in no time fast, and I even got him the official printer spot for a convention that was going to be going on in DC later that month. All of the designs were done for a number of jobs, but I come to find out later that he overshot what he could print and distribute by a huge margin, so only about a third of the materials we developed made their way to the clients with no explanation or apology made on his part. They of course, asked for partial refunds and he almost winds up in litigation with one of them. The second month I worked for him, his checks started bouncing. He and I are tight, so I give him time. He wants me to keep knocking out contracts, claiming that once we get caught up after the last month, I'll have a big payout. I ask him what needs to get done by the end of the month, and to put me in contact with the clients directly so I can take some workload off of him acting as my middle-man between me and the clients for the sake of approval of designs. Sure enough, we knock stuff out and only drop the ball on one contract, which I passed off to a friend of mine that needed the work and had less on her plate. Around 7 days out from our biggest contract that month, he tells me that we're going to have to renegotiate my fee because he couldn't get everything printed that month. He didn't have the cash to run the materials and he'd already spent his advances. The writing's on the wall, so I ask for what's due me, as I'm not going to go under with this guy for a third month running. He stops responding to my messages completely. At this point, I'm several thousand dollars in the hole, and wind up on emergency unemployment compensation. I finally got in contact with him almost eight months later. He's lost his business, his home is in foreclosure, and he's in debt up to his eyeballs. Contracting sucks. It's not just BYOND. This is why I started doing IT work. It pays about $7 less an hour than I was making while contracting, but it's more stable. Admittedly, I've had a couple of jobs where I've bitten off more than I could chew, or something started to smell fishy so I jumped ship since. Unfortunately, it's just part of business. You get in over your head, sticking it out is going to make things worse. Better to cut your losses and move to the next job than stick with a job you know you aren't going to be able to do. | |
Ter13 wrote:
Admittedly, I've had a couple of jobs where I've bitten off more than I could chew, or something started to smell fishy so I jumped ship since. Unfortunately, it's just part of business. You get in over your head, sticking it out is going to make things worse. Better to cut your losses and move to the next job than stick with a job you know you aren't going to be able to do. This is all well and good, but at least let the client know. As for your past contract work I do apologize for your loss, especially with someone you know. Considering though that business is just that. People come and go, but if you burn bridges just like in any business; other companies of the same type, even if just personal clients, will find out the basis of your relationship before it started will jump off on the wrong foot. | |
This is all well and good, but at least let the client know. Yep. Always. I've never been the type to avoid it. Honestly, if I have a job that I'm spinning my wheels on and just not able to get done, I start getting really anxious. I hate not being able to get stuff done, so at some point that anxiety needs to be addressed. As for the stories from my past working with people. It's just business. It happens. Most businesses live for ~7 years. The ones that are long-lived tend to be very long lived. Those that tend to be short lived are very short lived. Most startups don't survive their first year. It's just the nature of business in general. Making good decisions and attacking your target niche profitably is hard. As for all the things I mentioned above? They aren't really "I'm sorry" situations. I appreciate it, but I'm more pointing them out to explain that this is just the nature of business. I'm sure if it weren't for the capitalist rat-race most of us live in, this kind of thing wouldn't be a fact of life. @Draconite: At least you aren't out a bunch of money. Just be mindful of the signs people give you, and you might be able to better weed out bad investments in the future. Cheers. | |
I never signed a contract with you first of all I said I'd do what you requested and you failed to pay up front I'm not waiting for you man so I've found someone who pays me on the spot like I've been looking for and nicely advised you.
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Hebrons wrote:
I never signed a contract with you first of all I said I'd do what you requested and you failed to pay up front I'm not waiting for you man so I've found someone who pays me on the spot like I've been looking for and nicely advised you.  | |
. . .Can you hold them to like legitimate contracts? Pretty sure there's a way to have legit contracts online, so you can do agreements and not get fucked.
Don't mind me to that, though. @OP | |
When I did remote ( worked for them in my bedroom, lol ) work for swapdom, they emailed me a contract, I signed it, scanned it back into the computer and emailed them the signed copy.
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I know that I have a contract that I have clients sign when accepting a new project, but it's intended more as a resource to outline both my and my clients' expectations. Enforcement is painful, costly, and can require additional effort -- including the knowledge of someone well-versed in contract law before even proceeding with taking on the work.
For example, some states require that certain aspects of a contract (such as those specifying liability) need to be conspicuous. In order to satisfy that requirement, that may mean doing something as simple as capitalizing all of the text. But how many people are aware of that sort of requirement? And if I fail to do so, does that mean that that aspect of an agreement is no longer applicable? I'd be wary here, too, because we could be looking at contracts between people in different states or even different countries entirely, which is a whole big mess with which most people would never like to encounter. Having worked as a freelancer in the past and having known a number of other freelancers, usually we just cut our losses rather than try to enforce our own contracts (Edit to add: Or not deliver the promised goods until remaining payment has been made. I've done that a handful of times). It sucks (man, does it ever suck), but litigation can be timely and costly, as well as rarely having any real return. In a relatively small community like BYOND, the best enforcement would be the community policing itself. If a person reneges on an agreement (whether as the person request or providing a service), then it would benefit everyone to provide that sort of feedback in order to prevent that from occurring again. | |
It sucks (man, does it ever suck), but litigation can be timely and costly, as well as rarely having any real return. This is definitely the case. It's borderline impossible to recoup losses when it comes to this kind of thing. It's really easy for people to simply drag their feet and cost you as much money as they can during legal proceedings in the hope that you'll cut your losses and stop pursuing them. Then they can just largely ignore determinations and not pay you even if you do manage to get them to court and win. It's frankly better to just move on. In a relatively small community like BYOND, the best enforcement would be the community policing itself. If a person reneges on an agreement (whether as the person request or providing a service), then it would benefit everyone to provide that sort of feedback in order to prevent that from occurring again. We used to have this to a degree. If you haven't noticed, you can't respond to classified ads on BYOND publicly. It turns the response into a PM. Unfortunately, the BYOND community abused this privilege by turning every single classified ads post into a feedback session about how they would never succeed. So we sort of got rid of the ability to publicly reply. | |
Hebrons wrote:
I never signed a contract with you first of all I said I'd do what you requested and you failed to pay up front I'm not waiting for you man so I've found someone who pays me on the spot like I've been looking for and nicely advised you. Never said you did sign a contract I said it was verbal agreement, secondly you never let me know. Our first initial contract was for you to make the icons and I would pay you. You then said a few days later you needed money, so our new agreement was a weekly basis for icons done. You never stated anything about up front or on the spot payment. ok we might as well start with payment right off hand then cause if i can't afford it , don't want to waste both our times. So I am assuming you saw the post saying unpaid/paid and knew i am on an extreme tight budget? [3/6/2015 4:26:25 PM] draconite13: how much are you looking for to do the entire regiment of monsters [3/6/2015 4:27:57 PM] Hebron Swaray: 5$ per monster [3/6/2015 4:29:41 PM] draconite13: ok i would have to calculate that. give me a minute [3/6/2015 4:58:07 PM] draconite13: ok i am going to use this list for now, if i have to add i will later. total would be $245 to be honest i won't be able to afford that for a few months. That being said I don't mind paying it but it will have to be in chunks and on reciept of icons. But, I would also need them animated, it is not needed but would look awesome. How much to animate them. [3/6/2015 5:06:32 PM] Hebron Swaray: extra 1-2$ [3/6/2015 5:08:05 PM] draconite13: so for example, idle animation and attack animation. $7 per icon? [3/6/2015 5:08:24 PM] Hebron Swaray: yeah [3/6/2015 5:09:49 PM] draconite13: ok so total would be $343, for a bulk option would you take $300? [3/6/2015 5:10:37 PM] Hebron Swaray: ya [3/6/2015 5:11:01 PM] Hebron Swaray: id like to be paid per icon [3/6/2015 5:11:19 PM] draconite13: ok so for me to pay $300 it would be $50 a week so to round for issues, 2 months for payment. [3/6/2015 5:11:33 PM] Hebron Swaray: yeah [3/6/2015 5:12:49 PM] draconite13: you can keep the icons until 2 months when i pay you, if you want to do that. if you get paid per icon, dont know how you want to get paid, but if it is paypal they take money per charge, be better for you to get one payment [3/6/2015 5:14:51 PM] Hebron Swaray: i just wanted to do it like that cause i need to purchase something for 40$ asap [3/6/2015 5:15:07 PM] Hebron Swaray: and i have 10$ so far.. [3/6/2015 5:16:05 PM] draconite13: ok what i can do next pay which is on wed. i can give you $40 for 6 icons done and animated. [3/6/2015 5:16:22 PM] Hebron Swaray: ok sure [3/6/2015 5:16:57 PM] draconite13: ok i will give you the list so you can get crackin, and thank you for the help. [3/6/2015 5:17:26 PM] Hebron Swaray: no problem bro [3/6/2015 5:45:21 PM] draconite13: ok would you want them in one zip file or seperate transaction photos so i get paid for these first 5 icons right? [3/7/2015 9:58:48 AM] Hebron Swaray: once completed? [3/7/2015 1:34:50 PM] draconite13: 6 including the rat, and paid on wed. [3/7/2015 1:35:41 PM | Edited 1:35:58 PM] Hebron Swaray: is there a way you can give me 20 today if i do all 6? [3/7/2015 1:37:02 PM | Edited 1:37:21 PM] Hebron Swaray: then next set we can do the 50 dollar thing so basically your saving 30 this week [3/7/2015 1:37:42 PM] draconite13: i can't afford it til wed. why i said when i get paid next. [3/7/2015 1:37:52 PM] Hebron Swaray: oh ok.. [3/9/2015 9:54:50 AM] draconite13: hey have a quick question, are you bailing on the art ? cause i saw your post in classifieds and was just wondering [3/9/2015 4:08:12 PM] draconite13: i'll take that as a yes, well thank you anyways i will continue to look [3/9/2015 6:08:10 PM] Hebron Swaray: yeah im sorry bro [3/9/2015 6:08:28 PM] Hebron Swaray: i signed a con yesterday Where in there did you let me know, and or "nicely advised" me? We had a verbal agreement on payment if it wasn't going to work for you ; or you were that desperate for $20, at least let me know I would have been cool with it. | |
I get this kind of people every week, I wonder If I should post my NeverGetInBusinessWithThoseCrackHeadsByondersEverAgain.txt -_- not related to Pixel art only but other stuff aswell. People that say one thing one day and then MIA the Next day or people that waste your time for about 1-2 week talking to you and then MIA aftarwords those guys are even worst then the ones that talk to you first day and leaves the next.
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Quit depending on these retards and go to pixel joint.
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I tend to not take a job unless half of the first batch of work is paid up front. Even then, more often than not, I never see the second half of payments from people.