I apologize for my word choice, I was wrong. Yut Put is a very respectable developer, I just think this whole list thing is a bad idea. Didn't mean to start a flame war, may the force be with you all.
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Sorry even if yut has been a ass no one can deny what he has done he should be on anyones list of top developers, though I don't know much about anything before 2010. But sshhh Xirre stop bumping this post keep hiding my Chronicle Z post :(
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People should be able to speak their mind without fear of insulting anyone.
I often witnessed Yut Put himself being a toxic guy all around, putting himself on a pedestal, and acting like he was some lifeblood to BYOND. Not sad to see him go. | |
Ganite wrote:
Sorry even if yut has been a ass no one can deny what he has done he should be on anyones list of top developers, though I don't know much about anything before 2010. But sshhh Xirre stop bumping this post keep hiding my Chronicle Z post :( Don't advertise on BYOND. Advertise off BYOND. I've gotten 20 people to check out my game easily without even truly advertising off BYOND. Not to mention to 200 unique users on BYOND. It's also not even truly playable. All I can say to you is to get connected and meet some gamers off BYOND who are interested in 2D games. I frequent around Twitch and know tons of people. So as soon as word got out, people were interested in trying it. Along with my other projects too. I thought I saw this somewhere recently, but, someone said, "Nobody on BYOND will play your game." Most of them are on some anime game somewhere. So, what you need to do is forget about them and grab the other billions of people alive on planet Earth, hook them, befriend them, and have them help you with advertising as well. But, make sure you have content to keep the ones who aren't your friends. Because they won't stay for you. They'll only stay for the game. | |
I'm not trying to advertise just everytime someone makes a post they always go pics suck wheres videos now that I got videos no one wants to say anything which is ironic.
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Doohl wrote:
People should be able to speak their mind without fear of insulting anyone. You're right. But, once again, choose your words wisely. There are some pros and cons to YutPut being gone. I don't have to hear him bragging about how he's made so many games. It did piss me off. At times, I felt as if he was trying to point out the fact that I don't have any actual complete games on BYOND. But, little does he know, I have complete games off BYOND. I often witnessed Yut Put himself being a toxic guy all around, putting himself on a pedestal, and acting like he was some lifeblood to BYOND. Not sad to see him go. Yes. I never paid attention to any of his posts. But, after seeing him reply to a few of mine, I came to realize just how toxic he could be. I never played any of his games either. I've only hosted them. And boy... I can tell you hosting them ain't pretty. Very inefficient. What's in the foreground is amazing. But, what's in the background may very well be atrocious. Nonetheless, he was a good game developer and designer. One of the best designers and completionists if you ask me. He had good taste. Sure wish I got a chance to know him better before he pager banned me for speaking my mind. ^_^ | |
Best advice to anybody trying to use BYOND to make games: Do your advertising yourself. Stay away from non-development oriented forums. Notice that you haven't seen SilkWizard post on this site unless it's talking directly to Tom in how long?
Stay away from off topic at all costs. Stay away from other peoples' threads in Design philosophy. Don't mimic other BYOND games. Pick a game that hasn't been made with BYOND and look at how it does things. We have so many backwards concepts that have become standard on BYOND, like square map interfaces, statpanels, listviews, and output elements to the right of the map. If you want to make a solid game with BYOND you are going to need to wash your hands of the community completely. You are going to need to ignore any criticism that's based on "BYOND standards". You are going to need to make a game people won't know was made with BYOND and then market it outside of BYOND. You should be generating a profit with your game and sharing a percentage of that profit with BYOND. You should not expect BYOND to advertise your game. You should be bringing people here. Either way, this thread is another example of non-developers screaming at each other about things they don't know anything about. RIP in peace, Yut Put. | |
RIP in peace.
By the way, who the hell are you, 8Bit? To me, you're just some random guy who came out of nowhere, knows everything, writes the most beautiful and interesting posts, yet I have no clue where you spawned from. A genius sent from the Gods to guide the BYONDlings, are you not? | |
Me? Just a recent re-addition with no accomplishments to their name yet. I'll be posting a devlog of what I'm working on probably this weekend.
Our project's going to be partially open-source, so some of it may be of some interest to the parts of the community that aren't completely beyond help. By partially open source, I mean the engine code will be available to the public. The specific implementation of our engine that we are building will not be open-source. | |
Well he's definitely not a GalacticSoldier alt.
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8BitParagon wrote:
Stay away from off topic at all costs. Stay away from other peoples' threads in Design philosophy. False. Fear of others isn't going to get you or anyone else anywhere. Just ignore the trolls. If someone is attacking you, you have no obligation to care. However, if someone is attacking your game, pay attention, no matter how harsh the criticism is, but take none of it personally. You should be taking notice when people hate your game, because if you are not blinded by anger, then you might find out something useful. To put it simply, your game will not survive unless you get people to judge it! It always takes more than just you to make a great game. Some people become so blinded by the bad things in this community that they fail to see how helpful it really is. If we all ignored each other, then nobody would ever learn anything and BYOND would disappear. We have so many backwards concepts that have become standard on BYOND, like square map interfaces, statpanels, listviews, and output elements to the right of the map. True. The question is, "What are we going to do about it?". Instead of just ignoring the existing standard, we need to try changing it. Doing so would improve not only your game, but countless other games as well, even in the future. In order to make this happen, we must do what everyone has always tried to avoid. We must reinvent the wheel! The first step would be to create a library that works as a kind of HUD-based drop-in replacement for verb and stat panels. Something like this could almost instantly make half of the games around here look ten times better. If you convert the weaknesses into strengths then you have already won half of the battle. | |
Multiverse7 wrote:
False. Fear of others isn't going to get you or anyone else anywhere. Just ignore the trolls. If someone is attacking you, you have no obligation to care. It's not about trolls, but more the fact that there currently exists no redeeming knowledgebase on this website. The people who know the most about this software are either long gone or know well enough to stay away from the community forums. Those who understand game design aren't here. You are far better off using outside resources like Extra Credits, Gamedev.net, reddit.com/r/gamedev, the pixeljoint forums and more. The only parts of the forums that really are worth vising are Developer Help for code problems (We have some really awesome members that help out up there quite a bit), Bug Reports, and a small selection of Tutorials & Snippets. Every other section of the forum is simply victim to BYOND's problem of being too niche and filled with users who have a severe lack of knowledge or lack a concept of quality to give reasonable feedback. I don't want to seem like I'm bashing on BYOND. I'm just pointing out some facts about what we are and what we are not. Our art&sound community is really easy to impress. Getting proper feedback is hard. Best to get your C&C from pixeljoint or another community like it. The "byond way" of writing code isn't sufficient. It's best to use resources outside of BYOND for standardized approaches to problems and port them to DM. For DM-specific problems, Developer Help is good. Algorithms should almost always be assessed from outside of BYOND and then converted to work nicely with BYOND's particular way of doing things. As for Design Philosophy? I don't want to call anyone out, but everything I've seen posted in that forum is usually a case of just wanting to talk about game development and not actually making a game. A lot of those threads would never have existed if the posters had actually made an effort to play actual games, analyze their mechanics, and then maybe watch the wonderful extra credits series. This has nothing to do with trolls. It has nothing to do with the games that already exist around here. This has nothing to do with BYOND's survival or well-being. You want to make games? Make games. Anyway, this will probably be my last post on the forums for a long time. I've got work to do. What you guys do or don't do is on you, not me. To put it simply, your game will not survive unless you get people to judge it! It always takes more than just you to make a great game. Some people become so blinded by the bad things in this community that they fail to see how helpful it really is. You can pretend I'm saying the community is bad all you want. I'm saying that the community is small and it's niche. There's no reason BYOND games have to be niche. There's no reason you have to continue to limit yourself to BYOND's built-in audience. Check out some of the other communities I recommended. There's a reason they are large and popular. You'll get way more bang for your buck out of those communities and you'll get way better advice and feedback from people there than you would here. Am I saying completely cut all ties with this community? No. I'm saying there's next to nobody here who has anything to say that's worth listening to, I'm saying that there are places that aren't here that you can get the same or better advice/feedback from. This doesn't mean abandoning BYOND. It means widening your impact and the area where you get your knowledge from. The fact that you have any disagreement with that at all should give you pause. | |
8BitParagon wrote:
I'm saying there's next to nobody here who has anything to say that's worth listening to. This is the part that I disagree with. It's rather arrogant to think that nobody here is worth listening to. There are plenty of very smart people here with valuable input. I'm saying that there are places that aren't here that you can get the same or better advice/feedback from. This doesn't mean abandoning BYOND. It means widening your impact and the area where you get your knowledge from. By all means, gather feedback from outside of this small corner of the internet. That's very important. However, there are specific things that only the members of this community are able to relate to, which is part of what makes it so helpful. You should also keep in mind that BYOND, and its community, don't have a very good reputation, so some places may be more helpful than others. The fact that you have any disagreement with that at all should give you pause. I agreed with the majority of what you said. It's just that to me, the very fact that this community is niche is actually part of the problem. The only solution is to make great games, tell the world about them, and tell them where they should go to make their own games (BYOND.com). If we try to recruit people from outside, then this community will become less niche. | |
To just TLDR the whole conversation, I think more things would get done if you stop worrying about the small things and more about the big things:
-People who have money (BYOND is comprised of mainly kids who don't have money). -People who don't want everything to be free (BYOND is comprised of mainly kids). -Your own game and not others, unless you're doing research on how things fail and succeed. -Networking with other game developers who actually matter (which, as it currently stands, pretty much nobody on BYOND except the ones actually making some big bucks off of their game). With that being said, I think I'm going to disappear from the main forums (and all private forums except for my own and close friends) for a while now. Look forward to seeing some content from me in the near future. Ciao. | |
Well if anything was gained from this I'd say it was motivation for all of us to complete some quality projects, hopefully I'm right!
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am best
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Multiverse7 wrote:
It's rather arrogant to think that nobody here is worth listening to. It'd be arrogant if I were saying that I was the only one worth listening to on the subject of game development. I'm not telling you to listen to me on the subject at all, in fact. I'm pointing out where others are that you can and should probably listen to. I'm not really talking to you anyway, Multiverse, because you don't make anything. | |
That could have easily been written in a less offensive way. Such as:
"While YutPut is a good developer, I don't feel as if YutPut outweighs other developers that could have easily made the list here. I understand this is an opinionated list, but, a lot of developers have created some outstanding projects."
Choose your words wisely. Because now someone else has to do all the work around here and make tons of games. Even if they bottleneck out the a** all day.