Made a story about cool stuff

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Nov 16 2014, 8:34 am
In response to Fugsnarf
Fugsnarf wrote:
I wrote how I talk. Nothing wrong with that. You're dodging my point anyways, so I'm out of here.

That's exactly why you wrote incorrectly. By nature, we write exactly the way we talk until we're trained to understand that writing the same way we talk isn't always correct. It's okay to say "That sucks in my opinion" when you're chilling with your buddies, but chilling with your buddies and writing a novel or essay are two different things.

He's writing a book, not a letter to one of his friends, so he needs actual proper writing advice. If all you know how to do is write the way you talk then you're not in a position to be advising people.
Nov 16 2014, 8:50 am (Edited on Nov 16 2014, 9:05 am)
Redundancy isn't inherently wrong, and we are pointing out ways in which what you are calling redundant could actually be seen as improving the readability and flow of a sentence.

Rules are not set in stone, they are tools to ensure that written language isn't just chaos. They can be bent or broken within reason and if you want to call yourself a contemporary writer, you might as well develop a modern style of writing instead of a stuffy follow-every-rule style that nobody will like.


"Name?" a tall, skinny woman enquired.
"Name?" a tall, skinny woman demanded.
"Name?" a tall, skinny woman asked.
"Name?" a tall, skinny woman said.

"Name" a tall, skinny woman enquired.
"Name" a tall, skinny woman demanded.
"Name" a tall, skinny woman asked.
"Name" a tall, skinny woman said.

These are all grammatically correct. However, if you are not "full retard" then when you read them you will get different tones of voice and different ideas about the scene based on BOTH the punctuation in the quote, and the dialogue tag at the end.

And just before you try to come back with your arrogant idea about how the ET way of writing is the only way, examine the following quotes. They are straight out of the Sorceress of Darshiva, by David Eddings, whose mastery of languange has enchanted many readers:

"How long was the Sardion here?" Belgarath asked.
"Why don't you see if you can get some sleep, Ce'Nedra?" Garion asked her.
"What are you doing over there?" she asked,
"Couldn't we rig a sail of some sort?" Silk asked hopefully.
"Would ye care for a cup, sweeting?" he asked the duchess politely,

I think if I can pull out a popular novel from my bookshelf and immediately find five examples of exactly the thing you say is wrong, it's time to rethink your "proper writing advice"
Nov 16 2014, 9:01 am (Edited on Nov 16 2014, 9:11 am)
In response to Magicsofa
Magicsofa wrote:
Redundancy isn't inherently wrong, and we are pointing out ways in which what you are calling redundant could actually be seen as improving the readability and flow of a sentence.

Well here are two sentences from two of the most popular books right now: Divergent and Hunger Games. Note how they don't write "asked" at the end of the sentence after they've already included a question mark.

If this style of writing was so ridiculously unreadable, I'm trying to figure out how they're experiencing enormous success right now.



As you pointed out, redundancy isn't necessarily incorrect, it's just unnecessary. If he wants to write unnecessary stuff throughout his novel because he feels people will be too retarded to tell a question apart from a statement, cool. I'm just pointing out that the average reader doesn't have a reading disability that prevents him from understanding that question marks indicate questions, and that he/she doesn't need to be told a second time that a question is... a question. I'd rather not insult the intelligence of my readers. They'll be able to figure it out, just like they figured Hunger Games and Divergent out.
Nov 16 2014, 9:13 am
In response to EmpirezTeam
EmpirezTeam wrote:
If this style of writing was so ridiculously unreadable,

Nobody said that what you suggest is unreadable. Way to exaggerate other people's disagreements in order to make your opinion seem more valid.

You claimed that a question mark succeeding a dialogue tag with "asked" is redundant and therefore wrong or "unnecessary" ...whatever you call it, you were telling bumblemore to change it. All I'm saying is he does not have to change it.
Nov 16 2014, 9:18 am
In response to Magicsofa
Magicsofa wrote:
EmpirezTeam wrote:
If this style of writing was so ridiculously unreadable,

Nobody said that what you suggest is unreadable. Way to exaggerate other people's disagreements in order to make your opinion seem more valid.

You claimed that a question mark succeeding a dialogue tag with "asked" is redundant and therefore wrong or "unnecessary" ...whatever you call it, you were telling bumblemore to change it. All I'm saying is he does not have to change it.

And I'm saying if he changes it, people will not have "readability issues" or that my style of writing is less readable than your preferred way of writing - way to whip up some stupid, non-existent problem to make your opinion seem more valid. Go ask the thousands upon thousands of Divergent and Hunger Games fans if they had "readability issues" and see what they tell you.
Nov 16 2014, 9:56 am
Just to be an argumentative bastard, since that seems to be where this thread is heading...

All the quotes you posted still have the question mark in them. What you told him is that he didn't need the question mark in his writing, because it was redundant. Can you find common examples of that style of writing?

"Name." a tall, skinny woman enquired.

I will agree that the 'enquired' is unnecessary, as the question mark shows that it was an enquiry. However, leaving out the question mark causes the sound of the quote to change in my head after reading the second part of the sentence. Which feels odd...
Nov 16 2014, 10:29 am (Edited on Nov 16 2014, 10:40 am)
In response to Flick
Flick wrote:
Just to be an argumentative bastard, since that seems to be where this thread is heading...

All the quotes you posted still have the question mark in them. What you told him is that he didn't need the question mark in his writing, because it was redundant. Can you find common examples of that style of writing?

If you take the question mark out of the quotes that I showed then there is neither a quotation mark or ending word that confirms it's a question. I said there's no real reason to have both. The examples above don't end with "asked" because the author already had a question mark inside the quote.

I'll scroll through C.S. Lewis books, I recall there being one at the beginning of one of the Narnia books where a question was asked without the question mark. My example is rare, since it's usually only done long segmented sentences or where there are breaks, but if it can be used at any point, then it's correct. The question mark in the quote without asked being outside if it is the more common example of what I was saying about avoiding redundancy.

Here's the only one I can find. Here a question is started, but there's no indication that it's ever a question until the very end of the sentence. But you're still expected to have read "What on earth-" in a question tone, as that was the beginning of a question and not a statement. He also could have wrote "Peter began to ask" but didn't do that either.



Are you saying if you read this for the first time, you would've assumed "What on earth-" wasn't a question just because the dash was not a question mark, or because "asked" didn't come after the quote? Because I didn't. I saw that as a question when I first read it.
Nov 16 2014, 11:18 am
No, YOU are the one telling people not to write a certain way.
Nov 16 2014, 11:43 am
In response to EmpirezTeam
No, I read that as a cut off or incomplete question. And I agree that anything that reads as a traditional question; 'what', 'where', 'why', 'who', etc, is pretty obvious. I just don't recall seeing it that way very often. A question mark without a second clarifier, yes. A clarifier without a question mark, no.

(And just because C.S. Lewis did it once, doesn't mean it is correct.) ;)
Nov 16 2014, 11:47 am
In response to EmpirezTeam
EmpirezTeam wrote:
I said there's no real reason to have both. The examples above don't end with "asked" because the author already had a question mark inside the quote.

EmpirezTeam wrote:
You don't need a question mark here because you ended the sentence with "enquired", so the reader will already know it's a question.

Not quite the same thing. I get your point, and I agree that the 'enquired' could be seen as redundant, though it doesn't bother me personally.
Nov 16 2014, 11:53 am
In response to Magicsofa
Magicsofa wrote:
No, YOU are the one telling people not to write a certain way.

Woah, this guy just whipped out the bold lettering and capital letters. This thread just got real.
Nov 16 2014, 11:55 am (Edited on Nov 16 2014, 12:01 pm)
In response to Flick
Flick wrote:
No, I read that as a cut off or incomplete question. And I agree that anything that reads as a traditional question; 'what', 'where', 'why', 'who', etc, is pretty obvious. I just don't recall seeing it that way very often. A question mark without a second clarifier, yes. A clarifier without a question mark, no.

(And just because C.S. Lewis did it once, doesn't mean it is correct.) ;)

Considering the fact that C.S. Lewis knew more about writing than everyone on BYOND put together, I think it'd be safe to say he would've made some attempt to indicate that particular sentence was a question early on ( as everyone besides me in this thread has suggested ) as opposed to not doing it at all if it he knew the former was proper writing.

You also have to remember all good writers have their work proofread. So not only did C.S. Lewis find this acceptable, but also his proofreaders, which were also probably skilled writers, found it acceptable as well. Also, I'm sure he's done this on more than one occasion, this is just the immediate example I could think of. Those types of sentences are actually pretty scarce in any book you read. The most common format ( that isn't redundant ) is definitely:

"Where are you going?" she said.

He's also written redundant sentences before ( in the format you, Magic and Fug prefer ) so trying to discredit him would make you look silly. However it was probably to end the monotony of writing "said" over and over, which I showed an alternative for on the first page.
Nov 16 2014, 12:14 pm
I wasn't seriously trying to discredit C.S. Lewis... Although it is too bad he didn't have you there to show him those alternatives to writing "said" over and over again. Maybe he'd have become a better author.

Like I said at the beginning, just being an argumentative bastard. I'm at work and bored. ;)
Nov 16 2014, 12:15 pm
In response to EmpirezTeam
EmpirezTeam wrote:
Woah, this guy just whipped out the bold lettering and capital letters. This thread just got real.

Yup. And your defense has pretty much FAILED

Nov 16 2014, 12:16 pm
Here's a short and sweet article of what I was telling Fugsnarf. If you don't want to listen to me, at least listen to someone with a Ph.D. Redundancy is one of those things that you have no idea you've been doing it until someone points it out for you. I was writing "personally" and "if you ask me" in all of my essays too until I got to AP English and my teacher explained how silly it is.

http://www.dailywritingtips.com/personal-and-personally/
Nov 16 2014, 12:17 pm
In response to Magicsofa
Magicsofa wrote:
EmpirezTeam wrote:
Woah, this guy just whipped out the bold lettering and capital letters. This thread just got real.

Yup. And your defense has pretty much FAILED

But I didn't fail COMPLETELY!

I succeeded in getting you to become infuriated over a discussion about QUESTION MARKS!
Nov 16 2014, 12:18 pm
I AM NOT MAD
Nov 16 2014, 12:25 pm
In response to Flick
Flick wrote:
I wasn't seriously trying to discredit C.S. Lewis... Although it is too bad he didn't have you there to show him those alternatives to writing "said" over and over again. Maybe he'd have become a better author.

Like I said at the beginning, just being an argumentative bastard. I'm at work and bored. ;)

One sec, I'm alt tabbing back and forth out of League to argue with you guys. But now I'm getting camped by a Khazix and the struggle has gotten too real so I have to focus before I lose promos.
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