MIDI advice wanted

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ID:274541
 
Apr 20 2002, 7:06 pm
Today a simple tune popped into my head, that I believe is original, and it's got enough "play" to expand it into a few short pieces. So, I've decided to try to make some MIDI files for Incursion to fit a few game cues/themes. This will work about as well with MIDI as with newer, better formats because the music style is more orchestral.

I have very little experience editing MIDI files; my MIDI tracker is WinJammer, an ancient utility designed for Windows 3.1; it requires that I know some of the arcane nuances of the MIDI format. I have MOD trackers that are easier in many ways to work with, but they don't really "do" MIDI. (ModPlug will export to MIDI, but darned if I can figure out how to use it to compose a MIDI song.) I've used WinJammer so far to basically get a copy of the tune for reference later; trying to actually build on that is insanely difficult. (For an example of the type of problem I'm dealing with: I want to modify instrument 50, String Ensemble 2, to have a sharper attack and slightly sharper decay. I was trying to do this just to get a feel for how it'd sound; it isn't my ultimate goal. I'm pretty sure this is possible in MIDI but for the life of me I couldn't figure it out in WinJammer.)

I'm not really a composer; music isn't something I generally grasp intuitively (though I can do all right with it if I concentrate and work it out slowly), so trackers generally aren't designed for people like me to begin with. I need to find a tracker better than what I have now, hopefully good enough that it could perhaps even suggest harmonies to go with my melody (but I'll take what I can get). I'm looking for something free, because the idea of investing money in it if I'm doing the hard work myself is ludicrous.

Here's a rough outline of what I'm going for:
  • A theme for the beginning of the game; perhaps 2-4 minutes; building briefly and then going into the melody
  • Triumph music--a variation on the main theme, but particularly strong (I'm thinking with brass, like trumpets) and opening right into the main melody
  • An ominous theme for when a player acquires a card

    And this is the basic tune I have in mind. (If anyone recognizes it, that is if it might have popped into my head because I'd heard it somewhere else, please let me know.)

    Lummox JR
Apr 20 2002, 7:16 pm
I'd suggest using WAV files for your short burst of sound or melodies. MIDI tunes are normally for extended long play in the background. But you may want to do this? Just a suggestion. Also if you give up I think I can handle this as I use CakeWalk a $1000 piece of software invested in awhile back for music. So I could do this for a very reasonable price since I like your game!

LJR
Apr 20 2002, 7:46 pm
Lummox JR wrote:
For an example of the type of problem I'm dealing with: I want to modify instrument 50, String Ensemble 2, to have a sharper attack and slightly sharper decay. I was trying to do this just to get a feel for how it'd sound; it isn't my ultimate goal. I'm pretty sure this is possible in MIDI but for the life of me I couldn't figure it out in WinJammer.

Hmm, unless I'm misunderstanding you, I don't think this can be done in MIDI. Well, let me clarify. It can't be done with General MIDI, which is what you want to stick with for generic applications such as this. I'm sure many MIDI capable synthesizers will respond to MIDI events that can change these parameters, but there is nothing in the General MIDI standard to address them.

I'm not really a composer; music isn't something I generally grasp intuitively (though I can do all right with it if I concentrate and work it out slowly), so trackers generally aren't designed for people like me to begin with. I need to find a tracker better than what I have now, hopefully good enough that it could perhaps even suggest harmonies to go with my melody (but I'll take what I can get). I'm looking for something free, because the idea of investing money in it if I'm doing the hard work myself is ludicrous.

Well, since as you say, you're not a composer, a "better" program may or may not end up working better for you. As with anything you're not accustomed to, there may be a bit of a learning curve associated with more advanced but flexible software. That said, you may want to check out this thread and the suggestions there.

And this is the basic tune I have in mind. (If anyone recognizes it, that is if it might have popped into my head because I'd heard it somewhere else, please let me know.)

Hey, that's a good start, and while I still haven't managed to make it to an online session of Incursion, it sounds like it will fit well with the theme.
Apr 20 2002, 7:55 pm
In response to LordJR
LordJR wrote:
I'd suggest using WAV files for your short burst of sound or melodies. MIDI tunes are normally for extended long play in the background. But you may want to do this? Just a suggestion. Also if you give up I think I can handle this as I use CakeWalk a $1000 piece of software invested in awhile back for music. So I could do this for a very reasonable price since I like your game!

I considered .wav, but that doesn't seem appropriate. I want musical pieces a few minutes in length, not so short that they're conducive to a .wav file. Even at less than CD-quality audio, such a .wav would be pretty big.

I have some interest in doing this myself, as I have a few other ideas for how the themes will work together. I think with a decent tool I could make decent music, and I'd like to give it a shot. I'm not averse to the idea of someone else doing it, but I'm so much of a perfectionist that I think I'd end up nitpicking the result. Plus, if I do it myself I'll have an easier time expanding one or two themes into four or five, as I find new places to use music within the game.

Feel free to take a whack at it, though. If you'd like to send me samples of what you think would fit the outline I suggested based on that tune, I'd be glad to hear them. Anything I decide to use I'll pay a fair price for, but then that arrangement probably isn't worth your time (given the chances of it being close to what I have in mind) except as a chance to exercise your skill.

Lummox JR
Apr 20 2002, 8:07 pm
In response to Air Mapster
Thanks for the heads-up on that thread. I've downloaded MIDI Locator and I'll try it out soon; hopefully that will be what I need, or at least a start.

Lummox JR
Apr 20 2002, 8:10 pm
I don't have answers for all of your questions, but here are two:

1) I don't recognize the tune. It sounds promising!

2) I've been playing with a program called Anvil Studio (http://www.anvilstudio.com/), and it's pretty nifty. I ignore the traditional music score entirely and do everything in Piano Roll mode. However, if you do use music score mode (and you can switch between modes at will), the program can suggest chords. It's also pretty easy to pick out the exact notes you want, because the left side of the screen has clickable notes.

Thanks to Anvil Studio I have a minute's worth of background music written for SpaceTug now; I'm delighted with it, and it was fast work, after maybe a half-hour of getting acquainted with the interface.
Apr 20 2002, 8:10 pm
In response to Lummox JR
Ok, looks like Air Mapster knew of a better thread than I did. Hope it goes well for ya!

LJR
Apr 20 2002, 11:24 pm
In response to Gughunter
Gughunter wrote:
[snip]
2) I've been playing with a program called Anvil Studio (http://www.anvilstudio.com/), and it's pretty nifty. I ignore the traditional music score entirely and do everything in Piano Roll mode. However, if you do use music score mode (and you can switch between modes at will), the program can suggest chords. It's also pretty easy to pick out the exact notes you want, because the left side of the screen has clickable notes.
[snip]

There is also a guitar mode where lazy guitarists who only learned how to read music because their last MIDI program forced them to can have an easy time. (Actually, I'm still more used to the controls in the old one... but I can do more in Anvil Studio for free... and even more when I actually have the small amount to pay them.)
Apr 21 2002, 4:33 am
In response to Gughunter
Gughunter wrote:
2) I've been playing with a program called Anvil Studio (http://www.anvilstudio.com/), and it's pretty nifty. I ignore the traditional music score entirely and do everything in Piano Roll mode. However, if you do use music score mode (and you can switch between modes at will), the program can suggest chords. It's also pretty easy to pick out the exact notes you want, because the left side of the screen has clickable notes.

Thanks to Anvil Studio I have a minute's worth of background music written for SpaceTug now; I'm delighted with it, and it was fast work, after maybe a half-hour of getting acquainted with the interface.

Thanks!
I tried out MIDI Locator already but it failed on startup saying it can't find DirectSound 8. (Well I'm not sure my DirectX version goes past 7, so that's no surprise.)

Lummox JR
Apr 21 2002, 5:34 am
In response to Gughunter
I use anvil studio, its pretty good. But I wish I could have more instruments or make a sound/instrument of my own :P The lack of effects makes it hard to do cool stuff. But its very good though!
Apr 21 2002, 5:50 am
In response to Lummox JR
Lummox JR wrote:
Gughunter wrote:
2) I've been playing with a program called Anvil Studio (http://www.anvilstudio.com/), and it's pretty nifty. I ignore the traditional music score entirely and do everything in Piano Roll mode. However, if you do use music score mode (and you can switch between modes at will), the program can suggest chords. It's also pretty easy to pick out the exact notes you want, because the left side of the screen has clickable notes.

Thanks to Anvil Studio I have a minute's worth of background music written for SpaceTug now; I'm delighted with it, and it was fast work, after maybe a half-hour of getting acquainted with the interface.

Thanks!
I tried out MIDI Locator already but it failed on startup saying it can't find DirectSound 8. (Well I'm not sure my DirectX version goes past 7, so that's no surprise.)

Lummox JR

I downloaded and upgraded my DirectX to 8.1.

Its an 11 megabyte download took me awhile on 56k but I got it, I will have to get you the link for it. When I find where I got mine I will post the link ok.

Also the Incursion.mid you posted earlier was from RM2K :)

Its "Village3" the title I think.

Lee
Apr 21 2002, 6:01 am
In response to Mellifluous
Also the Incursion.mid you posted earlier was from RM2K :)

Its "Village3" the title I think.

There might be similarities, but insofar as I can tell, he wrote that one himself.

I'll go download the RM2K resource pack to check, though. (I don't have either RPG Maker any more, since they were illegal, and wasting hard drive space.)
Apr 21 2002, 6:05 am
In response to Spuzzum
Spuzzum wrote:
Also the Incursion.mid you posted earlier was from RM2K :)

Its "Village3" the title I think.

There might be similarities, but insofar as I can tell, he wrote that one himself.

I'll go download the RM2K resource pack to check, though. (I don't have either RPG Maker any more, since they were illegal, and wasting hard drive space.)

Ok :)

Sorry, I meant that it sound familiar, not the same sound as I know he said he composed it. I forgot to add in that it sounded familiar from RM2K

Lee

PS, if you want I will send you the sound file of it so you can check, thats if you have anyway of being contacted :D
Apr 21 2002, 6:10 am
In response to Mellifluous
PS, if you want I will send you the sound file of it so you can check, thats if you have anyway of being contacted :D

Email's in my personal info.

(Ooh, good, I don't have to dirty myself with Don Miguel's horrible grammar.)
Apr 21 2002, 6:32 am
In response to Mellifluous
Mellifluous wrote:
Also the Incursion.mid you posted earlier was from RM2K :)

Its "Village3" the title I think.

Well, I haven't checked out that package, so I wouldn't have heard that MIDI. So that's good; I was worried about a song I might have heard getting embedded in my subconscious where I might have mistaken it for an original tune.

I know the tune does have a lot of similarity to others (though I'm not sure which ones), but then being similar to other tunes is impossible to avoid anyway. I can live with that.

Lummox JR
Apr 21 2002, 6:46 am
In response to Spuzzum
Spuzzum wrote:
PS, if you want I will send you the sound file of it so you can check, thats if you have anyway of being contacted :D

Email's in my personal info.

I will send the mail as soon as I find the file ;)

(Ooh, good, I don't have to dirty myself with Don Miguel's horrible grammar.)

I have to agree, my grammar isnt the best but his is quite crappy :S

Lee
Apr 21 2002, 6:49 am
In response to Lummox JR
Lummox JR wrote:
Mellifluous wrote:
Also the Incursion.mid you posted earlier was from RM2K :)

Its "Village3" the title I think.

Well, I haven't checked out that package, so I wouldn't have heard that MIDI. So that's good; I was worried about a song I might have heard getting embedded in my subconscious where I might have mistaken it for an original tune.

I know the tune does have a lot of similarity to others (though I'm not sure which ones), but then being similar to other tunes is impossible to avoid anyway. I can live with that.

Lummox JR

Well now you don't have to worry about it being a song embedded in your subconscious ;)

Hehe

Lee
Apr 21 2002, 6:58 am
In response to Lummox JR
Lummox JR wrote:
Thanks!
I tried out MIDI Locator already but it failed on startup saying it can't find DirectSound 8. (Well I'm not sure my DirectX version goes past 7, so that's no surprise.)

Lummox JR

Here is the link for the DirectX update ;)

DirectX 8.1 Update

Hope you like it, the DirectX 8.1 update is just over 11 megabytes.

Lee
Apr 21 2002, 7:51 am
In response to Air Mapster
And this is the basic tune I have in mind. (If anyone recognizes it, that is if it might have popped into my head because I'd heard it somewhere else, please let me know.)

Hey, that's a good start, and while I still haven't managed to make it to an online session of Incursion, it sounds like it will fit well with the theme.

I agree... though I am by no means a composer, I do have a teensy suggestion to that theme. Right now, it always ends on lower notes, making it sound a little depressing. While that might be exactly what you're going for, my humble-and-by-no-means-necessary opinion is that the final notes could end on higher notes, making it sound more like an epic.

Like I said, though -- I'm not a composer. I make songs, but I just create riffs of instruments and turn them on or off in planned intervals.

Also, despite wanting to make a valid effort to add it, I still have almost no songs with any sort of variation in them. The only song that has an actually readily identifiable variation is The Haven Seed Theme. And, the only song that switches keys as it goes along is WorldNet (belonging to Covert Assault Troopers, which is no longer a BYOND project).
Apr 21 2002, 9:12 am
In response to Spuzzum
Spuzzum wrote:
Hey, that's a good start, and while I still haven't managed to make it to an online session of Incursion, it sounds like it will fit well with the theme.

I agree... though I am by no means a composer, I do have a teensy suggestion to that theme. Right now, it always ends on lower notes, making it sound a little depressing. While that might be exactly what you're going for, my humble-and-by-no-means-necessary opinion is that the final notes could end on higher notes, making it sound more like an epic.

I have a few other segments in mind that have more of a rising feel. Basically that tune is just what I want as the main melody, covered by instruments such as trumpets and other horns. One of the key themes will be the conquest theme, which should use that melody in a "triumphant" way. (It'll also work well for flutes in slower points.)

Like I said, though -- I'm not a composer. I make songs, but I just create riffs of instruments and turn them on or off in planned intervals.

Also, despite wanting to make a valid effort to add it, I still have almost no songs with any sort of variation in them. The only song that has an actually readily identifiable variation is The Haven Seed Theme. And, the only song that switches keys as it goes along is WorldNet (belonging to Covert Assault Troopers, which is no longer a BYOND project).

I wish I knew more about keys. Trying to work with them in Anvil Studio is a little weird.

Lummox JR
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