Anarchy Robot wrote:

Trust me, if God wanted people to know about him, they would.

And if people really want to know about him, they will.
(Actually, according to the bible, they will whether they want to or not.)

But this doesn't belong on a programming community forum.

Jehova, Allah, and Buddha are going to be really ticked off at you when you go to meet them in the afterlife.

Anarchy Robot wrote:

I know that this is a very risque topic,

Indeed.

but I would like to discuss it with you good people. It occured to me the other day that morals and right and wrong and good and evil don't matter one bit unless you have religion.

That is entirely untrue. Morals can't be avoided at one point or another any more than death or taxes. Humans are born with morals. If an aetheist sees someone get killed, they feel sick, unless they've been taught to be ruthless. Odds are that your kindergarten teacher taught you not to steal, does that mean you're religious?

And that is a strange thing to wonder at. If people truely didn't believe in God, then why should they do anything at all?

Because it's basic human instinct. Also, the government tends to enforce breaking of human "morals" such as the moral that you probably shouldn't kill people.

If nothing matters then why do you care about anything but yourselves? Wait, that is EXACTLY how it is. Do you see? Why is it like this? Soicety makes it like this. Everyone is thinking it, but I'm just going to say it: the government favors satanists and atheists.

Wow, someone's been living in a box. I wonder why none of our presidents have ever been satanic?

It's a simple as that. Why do we allow it to continue like this? Doesn't anyone care? If you do not have religion, then why would you even care if I cursed on the forums or posted something that was "evil" or bad.

If a hell or a heaven isn't enough to persuade you from doing wrong, then think of your soul living the rest of its days behind bars.

If there is no religion then everything is relative and people can be controlled.

It would actually be easier to control people THROUGH religion. The Arab suicide bombers believe they are killing innocent people for Allah. The same way you could teach people to eliminate entire races because they're god tells them to.

Do you know why things seem inherently good and evil though? Because they do, don't try to deny it. If you kill someone, or steal from someone, you know it is wrong, somewhere.

Refer to "this is basic human instinct"!

This is because there is a God, and there is good and evil. Why do people want "proof" of God?

People tend to believe in things they can feel and see, and will generally fear the anonymous.

Trust me, if God wanted people to know about him, they would.

Read the bible.

Likewise, if he didn't want people to find "proof" of him, he wouldn't let them.

Could you prove this?

God is about free will (which, by the way, America takes away from you).

Woh. Stop there. If you didn't make yourself seem like an idiot above, you're sure doing a bang-up job of it here. Do you know how many countries you could be shot in for saying you dislike the leader? America is all about freedom, and NO ONE is trying to take it away.

If there was "proof" of him, everyone would just accept it blindly and there would be no free will.

There *is* proof, just none that the largest skeptics would believe. Once again, they want something they can feel and see.

It has to be from faith. Is it really worth it to live without God and spend an eternity in anguish and torment? Is living the way you do day in and day out really worth lifetimes forever and ever suffering with no hope for salvation? Suffering totally alone with yourself and your own anguish?

I'm going to take a shot in the dark and say probably not.

Your life is but a blink in terms of eternity, so what makes you think that it is ok to allow yourself to become corrupted and to allow others to corrupt you as well as the world? If you don't care, then just kill yourself now because that's all the world will come to anyway with the way everyone thinks.

Uh...if people didn't believe in a heaven or a hell, why would they ruin the only time they have left as a consious being? Kill themselves because they don't care? You have one of the *worst* theories I've ever had the misfortune of accidently reading.

HavenMaster

If the only reason you can see to not steal and kill is because you think God said so... then you're more dangerous than an atheist who has an ethical system based on upbringing, logic, and simple human empathy.

You prove my point handily: God is apparently the foundation of -your- morals, and you can't see any motivation to do good and to not do bad except for God's existence. Therefore, if someone concinved you that God doesn't exist, you would feel that there was no more reason to do good. You even say as much, by saying that those who are already atheists and unbelievers already feel this way.

I, on the other hand, believe that God probably exists. I don't have faith. I just think that it's more likely that God is probably there then not.

Since I have no faith and I'm not counting on an afterlife of punishment or reward, the existence or non-existence of God plays no part in my morality. Am I a murderer? No.

I'm more staunchly against murder than even a Christian. A Christian says murder is wrong because God says so. I say, murder is wrong, regardless what God says.

Sky opens up and a voice booms down amid a glowing column of light, "Go ye forth and slay me the firstborn of every family on Sycamore Street!", I would say, "No." and if the booming voice says, "Why hast thou forsaken me?", I would say, "Because it's wrong."

Some people have faith, I have principles.

As for the idea that America takes away free will... again, you're the one who wants everyone to have one viewpoint and thinks everyone should be one religion. You don't want free will... you want -your- will. You want to throw out all the other choices and make everything the way you would have it.

And America favoring satanists and atheists? Court orders protecting the rights of the minority to remain a minority (by not joining the crowd in the majority) isn't a sign of favoritism, it's a sign of equality. Most high government posts are controlled by Christians (a handfull by Jews) and the law still widely reflects Chritian beliefs and favors Christian institutions.

In many parts of the country, the only way an alternative (what you would call "satanic", i.e. wiccan, asatru, discordian, etc.) church can get their lawful tax exemption status or zoning variance and such is to tack some Christian term into their name... other churches have to prove that they're organized and established, Christian ones get pushed right through without a glance.

As for an eyeblink of a life vs. an eternity of whatever... if eternity was worth anything, there wouldn't be so darn much of it. Life is rare and precious. Afterlife, if it's there, is cheap and common. We live in a world of potential. Things can change. You can do things. You can accomplish things. You can help someone, you can amuse someone. A perfect paradise or an eternal torment is unchanging and staid. What can you accomplish when you're in a perfect state? How can you help your neighbor out if your neighbor already has everything he or she needs, as do you? How can you amuse someone who's already feeling perfect joy and contentment?

And you say God is about free will... but you imagine that there's only a very limited range of thought that gets you into heaven. That's not free will. That's a joke. "Son, you can have any car on the lot... 'so long as it's that one right there." And once you're in heaven, do you still have to worry about impure thoughts or sin? You can't get kicked out (or if you can, they left that out), so do the impure thoughts vanish, or does God stop caring? If sin is impossible in heaven, where did the free will go? If sin is possible, then what kind of morality is this? Be good for meaningless decades and be bad for eternity thereafter? That's your God?

Yes, but you're a evil satanic homosexual, so your oppinion doesn't count. Now that's freedom!


[Just in case you can't tell, that was sarcastic, I've got nothing against gay/bi/whatever, except that it isn't right for me]

Can we delete this thread now?

Quite true. I am in no way trying to force anything on anyone, so please don't be offended by it. Or do be offended by it. At the very least, our constitution says NOWHERE that you have the right to not be offended. always remember that. Anyway, i have regthought what i said. I think that "what is right" is meant to be what helps and doesn't hurt other people. What i meant was how can there be "good" or "evil" without christianity? Like, i know that killing someone is wrong, but is it "good" or "evil"? If you kill someone with a mask, then you are a terrorist. But if you kill someone with a uniform, then you are a hero. You see, it's all very wierd. I think that trying to save yourself from eternal suffering is not selfish; when it comes down to it, there are just some things that only you can decide for yourself, and only you can do. Please understand, you have a bad understanding (all of you),or christianity. It is not about "pleasing god". he doesn't need anything from us. Also, it is not about doing good things. It's more then that.i read somewhere that it is like this. just being a good person is like being a good swimmer. suppose that you crash in the middle of the ocean with an olympic swimmer. sure he is a better swimmer then you, but nothing either he or you can do will save you. sure he might swim further then you, but he will die eventually. that is like christianity. it's not about what we do, it is about what jesus did. im not sorry to bring this up actually, because nowhere in the rules does it say that off topic has to be game related chat at all so get off my back (or dont!). because that is what life is about : free will. and when people take that away from us, is when and also WHY i rebel against them. prehaps this cleared some stuff up. i dont' know. what about other religions? well, you all have nice american brainwashed views of things: all roads lead to heaven. give me a break, it isn't like that. it's not like "hell exists if i believe it does" either. those are just atheist cliches that were planted in your minds to stiffle your free will. Whatever, im not sure what i posted for. just ignore me. but eternity is worth more then whatever we can hope to live out. why waste it? ive always thought this: so ok, god DOESN'T exist (but i believe he does), isn't it better to live your life like a christian, doing good and helping others and being a jesus-like person, rather then living as an apathetic atheist who doesn't care about anything and dying a bad person?

So what you're saying is that the thought of eternal suffering hasn't bothered you a bit? Ok then. Just making sure. Back to our robot lives where we can die hollow shells of humanity that we lost so long ago. All hail money!
.:

ah one more thing... just think what the world would be in anarch... Without a government there would be only the laws that single communities make up for themselves, or if not that, then just the morals each individual lives by..

There would still need to be a sort of currency, because without that people would consume without putting anything back.. there would need to be people working (building making, etc..) and then consuming..

Think about this... if we must work, to consume, then there will be those who dont want to work, but want to consume...well, by being stronger, with weapons and etc... they can control the weak... just like what you say the US govt is... then comes slavory, those who wont work...murdered...

The US Govt isnt like that... those who dont work, dont consume, their still free to do whatever they want, as long as it isnt damaging to anyone else.. those lucky enough to consume without working either A, worked enough earlier in life to have money to not have to work anymore, thereby creating something valuable enough to mankind that they dont need to work.

or B, their ancestors did A and even had some left over

or C, stole, thereby ruining it for everybody else..

The government is just trying to give everybody a piece of the cake...as David Brin wrote in The Postman..

A Part of 'Chapter 14'
That night Gordon dreamed he was wathcing Benjamin Franklin play chess with a boxy iron stove.
"The problem is one of balance," the graying statesman-scientist said to his invention, ignoring Gordon, as he contmplated the chessboard, "I've put some thought to it. How can we set up a system which encourages individuals to strive and excel, and yet which shows some compassion to the week, and weeds out madman and tyrants?"
Flames licked behind the stove's glowing grille, like dancing rows of lights. In words more seen than heard, it inquired:
"...Who will talk responsiblity...?"
Franklin moved a white knight. "Good question." he said as he leaned back. "A very good question.
"Of course we can establish the constitutaional checks and balances, but those won't mean a thing unless citizens make sure the safeguards are taken seriously. The greedy and the power hungry will always look for ways to break the rules, or twist them to their advantage."
The flames flicked out, and somehow in the process a red pawn had moved,
"...Who...?"
Franklin took out a handkerchief and wiped his brow.
"Would-be tyrants, that's who... they have an age-old panopoly-manipulateing the common man, lying to him, or crushing his belief in himself.
"It's said that 'power corrupts,' but actually it's more true that power attracts the corruptible. The sane are usually atrtracted by other things than power. When they do act, they think of it as a service, which has limits. The tyrant though, seeks mastery, for which he is insatiable, implacable."
"...foolish children..." the flames flickered.
"Yes," Franklin nodded, wiping his bifocals, "Still, I believe that certain innovations might help. The right myths, for instatnce."
"And then, if Good is willing to make sacrifices..." He reached out, picking up his queen, hesitated for a moment and then moved the delicate ivory piece all the way across the board, almost under the glowing hot grille.
Gordon wanted to cry out a warning. The queen's position was completely exposed. Not even a pawn was nearby to protect her.

...

id like to hear your defenition of free will, anarchy... the only way man can truly have free will is if love/hate didnt exist...

without love or hate man has nothing to fight for/against, and lives peacably in himself