ID:153921
 Oct 27 2002, 7:13 am
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I am just wondering which way is better, if either one is better. Is it better to have lots of verbs, or to have lots of procs that are called by verbs?
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Oct 27 2002, 8:24 am
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Garthor
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A lot of procs, because that way you can have a nice fancy UI without the verb panels.
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BYOND provides a moderately powerful command parser with built-in macro support--all in all, a pretty decent input system. The fact that it also provides a quick 'n dirty way to present commands is a secondary concern--if you don't want to use verb panels, then by all means, don't! That's no reason to give up on verbs, though, especially since I've seen very few "nice fancy UIs" that even came close to replacing the functionality that they so thoughtfully threw away. A good UI is not one that looks fancy and has lots of submenus. A good UI is one that lets the player perform the action they want as quickly, accurately, and intuitively as possible. If I want to cast a fireball at the touch of a button, I ought to be able to do so (and at a button of my choosing), rather than being forced to maneuver through several layers of graphical menus.
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Verbs are basically procs with some added functionality that makes them verbs. Aside from that, there is no difference. They can be used exactly the same way procs can.
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Its all in the eye of the beholder. I think verb panels do there job great if they are used right. However some games make me absolutely hate them.
Ie, the one bad thing for me in HRH, Panels and Verbs dissapearing and reapearing. Go to click on Scrounge, someone walks past, next thing you realise you clicked on Run by mistake. You can do some good things with verb panels, but you have to make sure to keep an eye on them. Otherwise they get cluttered and ugly. The worst is when there are like 50 verbs in 2 panels. -DogMan | |
GAAAAAAARRRRRGH! *tears out hair*
You can have verbs and take advantage of BYOND's built-in parser without having them show up on verb panels! Blaaargh! Is this such a hard concept for people to understand? | |
Nothing, but it's clumsy and you don't see too many games that aren't RPGs or MUDs that use text input to do anything. People want their programs to be like everyone else's programs, don't you know.
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Very true... But that completely screws over those of us who never use the command line...lol
I myself very rarely type anything in that box (and only when I absolutely have to)... I much prefer an easy click of a verb in a panel or a button on the map... I'm very much a glitz and "fancy" interface kind of player... Definitely not the "do it yourself" type that likes to type commands in by hand...lol | |
As Foomer pointed out, there's really not much difference between the two... Verbs are just accessible by the player directly, whereas procs are not...
So from a coding standpoint, it's all the same... However, I personally don't really like going into a game and having hundreds of verbs available to me when all I ever use in the game are about three of them...lol Who needs 20 different emote verbs? 5 varieties of "say"? Complexity is good... But there's a point where it becomes too much... So I prefer a game with just a few important verbs for the player to use... Sure, make those verbs perform multiple duties by having them call various procs based on the conditon they were used under (I recently switched the interface in my game from having multiple verbs to putting most of that functionality into procs that are called when just one verb is used... it really made things better in my opinion) Also, when you give a player constant access to a verb, alot of times you'll need to restrict when/how they can use the verb... This means all kinds of checks hardcoded into the verb to make sure that they can't use it when they're not supposed to... Put that code into a proc that can only be accessed when you want it to, and that takes care of that... So overall, I think that a nice balance between giving the player a handful of important verbs, and putting the grunt work into procs is the best way to go... | |
In that case, you'll like the RPG I'm planning to make (engine, at least, if all else fails), since it's totally mouse operated. Of course, it lets you use keyboard macros for most everything too, or at least, I'd like it too. Have to wait for the new version of BYOND to find out exactly what I can do and what I can't.
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Cool... I prefer my controls to be as simplified as possible (which is probably why I prefer console gaming to computer gaming... 4 or 5 buttons and an analog stick as opposed to 20 keyboard keys and a mouse with two more buttons is the way I like to play my games)
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Foomer wrote:
Nothing, but it's clumsy and you don't see too many games that aren't RPGs or MUDs that use text input to do anything. People want their programs to be like everyone else's programs, don't you know. *cough*every single first person shooter since, what, DooM?*cough* It's not friggin clumsy, either. Clumsy is having to pick up the stupid mouse and click a given button every time you want to do something, with no other alternative if you happen to need to use the movement keys with that hand, or else you're busy clicking on some other interface element. There's your clumsy right there. | |
GAAAH! Am I the only person on the entire friggin planet that understands this concept? I feel like I'm speaking some bizarre alien language whenever I talk about this stuff, because no one seems to understand.
I try to make myself pretty open-minded, but I'm going to come down on this issue: A good interface is a customizable one. Period, end of story. A good interface means that if someone wants to click something on the screen to do something, they can do it, and if they want to press alt + P to do something, they can do it that way too, and if they want to type out a command, well guess what? THEY CAN DO IT THAT WAY TOO. If you make a command that can only be accessed by clicking a button on-screen, then that is laziness of a far, far worse sort than using verb panels ever is or ever will be, because you are going out of your way to make things harder for the player just to avoid tarnishing your "professional" view. Which, by the way, is bogus to begin with because the professionals don't force players to make clumsy, gross mouse movements every time they want to do something; at the very least they will provide a great array of keyboard shortcuts, and the better interfaces will provide the option to re-designate many of these. Your really good interfaces, the sort that are found in a lot of FPS games as well as MUDs/RPGs, will actually provide command lines for those so inclined. And bear in mind that FPS gamers are among the most hardcore, demanding gamer demographics out there--that doesn't mean that what they use is necessarily the best for everybody, but when the matter in question is a very inobtrusive option, then yes it's probably the best for everybody. Particularly when it's an option that, for most purposes in this case, can be implemented in all of two lines of code. Maybe thirty to forty keystrokes to provide a panel-less verb backup for a GUI option. How does using verb panels count as laziness when skimping on those thirty to forty keystrokes to add a customizable alternate input option not? (P.S. By way of example, WebCrawl. I didn't even realize there were verbs for all the game functions until I asked about them, which in retrospect was pretty stupid, seeing as I had seen that in the documentation and knew that it would be rather difficult to configure a default macro set without having verbs to macro too. In my defense, the function I was looking for didn't seem to be available, or at least wasn't part of the default macro set, or else I wasn't looking as hard as I should have). | |
I love the command line. From a single location, with a matter of a few keystrokes, you can access any and every command in the game, with any and every combination of arguments and modifiers. It's far more elegant and intuitive than clicking on a verb in a panel, waiting for a list of arguments or an input box to pop up, etc. Granted, I was bitten by a radioactive keyboard and thus have typing powers far beyond those of mortal users, but I still think anyone who insists on using the mouse is shooting themselves in the foot.
Among other things, I think using the command line is a far more immersive experience. You don't have to look at anything except the game screen while you're doing so, and once you get in the habit of typing your commands, they become almost like reflexive actions... you're not 'clicking' a command to make your 'character' do something, you're doing it. | |
Hey, I tried getting rid of the panels in HrH and people threw a fit. I don't know why anyone uses them. It's nice to see a list of all available actions, but as far as actually using them, they give you the absolute least control over your actions of any BYOND input method... aside from the changing-accessibility problem you mentioned, choosing from multiple similar targets is absolutely impossible, and choosing from dissimilar ones takes less time than right-clicking on the target to begin with or inputting an argument in the command line.
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Lesbian Assassin wrote:
Hey, I tried getting rid of the panels in HrH and people I agree - once I learned what was available from the command line I stopped using the panels in HrH altogether. Made my gaming experience faster and easier. Maybe developers should offer alternative interfaces at the start of the game for players to choose from? Granted, this means more coding in some respects, but creates a more comfortable gaming 'experience'. | |
