On fans & fangames

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ID:107695
 
Jan 27 2011, 8:05 pm (Edited on Jan 27 2011, 8:18 pm)
Keywords: website
Greetings, BYONDers! Already we have surpassed last year's total for news posts, so we're doing a good job sticking to our goal of greater transparency in 2011 (and byond).

As you may have noticed, the site has been changing since the update earlier this year. Expect that to continue as we try out different approaches to organizing, promoting, and displaying games and resources.

Hubs & fans


We've updated hub entries to display some extra information (thanks to Falacy & SuperAntx for some suggestions here). Of particular interest is the #fans. The count of BYOND Members who are fans of a game is used as a score that determines the default popularity sort. The top-20 games get front-page billing and a shiny star. We chose to use Members rather than non-members because the latter is far easier to fake; that said, we'll be on the lookout for abuse.

Fangames

You may notice that not all games appear in the aforementioned popularity sort-- in fact, many of our more popular games don't. This is because we have opted to exclude "fangames" from the default display. Wikipedia defines a fangames as "video games made by fans based on one or more established video games", but since Wikipedia is mostly full of ****, we're changing the definition to suit our purposes. We're calling fangames "games who owe their popularity due to an outside, established intellectual property or franchise". As an example, let's pick a completely random title, say, "Naruto: Legend of the Drunken Pickle"... that's a fangame! (It's also more than likely a "rip" and will be pulled from the index before you can say "goku", but let's pretend it is original for the purpose of this thought experiment). Due to the plethora of Anime fans within the BYOND community, someone could make a game like that*, attract players simply on the merit of the name, and encourage other developers to follow suit. This leads to a cyclical setup where BYOND remains a fangame hub for perpetuity because developers see it as the easy way of getting players. And this doesn't even consider the legal and/or moral implications of using another intellectual property without permission as an essential component in one's own development (a topic for another post).

*Yes, we realize that there are good, original fangames out there-- and in fact those are the only ones we are attempting to even list-- but the fact remains that, good or bad, without our intervention, fangames will always get more exposure on the current site due to the composition of the community.

There is some wiggle-room in the fangame definition, and we will review all submissions. For instance, "Texas Hold'em Poker" is not a fangame because there isn't really a claim to the intellectual property (the guy who owned that would be rich though). Games that borrow elements from movies, tv shows, other video games and so-forth may be exempt from fangame status depending on how they use (or mask) such elements. Games that have other pop-culture titles or promotional materials (such as banners and graphics) are pretty much guaranteed to be fangames. However, all of this can be changed after the fact if the developer is willing to put in the time to update their titles with original resources.

What does it mean?

Honestly, for existing users, not a heck of a whole lot. You can still search for fangames (at least the original ones who've survived the 99% "rip" filter). We have even created some special tags-- "anime" (Anime fangames) and "fangame" (everything else, mostly movie/video-game homages)-- to list them. The only difference between fangames and other games is how they appear in the default, tag-less, display and the fact that such games are not promoted on the banners throughout the site. This is important, not for you, dedicated BYONDer for over 10 years, but for the new users we hope to bring in. We would like them to understand that BYOND is more than an Anime development studio! We want them to find new, original concepts to play, maybe the next indie sensation. More importantly, we want to encourage the creation of such things. If you happen to be one of those new users and want to take a crack and making a game, why not make something original and shoot for a front page listing?

Top new games & featured games


At the top of the popularity sort are two new boxes: Top new games & featured games. The top new games are just that-- popular (non-fangame) games recently listed. At this point in time, BYOND does not have a lot of new, original submissions but we hope this can change, now that we're being proactive in encouraging their development. The best thing that can happen to BYOND isn't the Flash port or BYOND 3D or what-not... it's getting good developers to write good games.

Featured games are basically "staff picks" of games we'd like to draw attention to. Typically these will be current games, but occasionally we may want to feature games from the past. For example, I (Tom) fondly recall some fun sessions playing Lexiconomy, Una, and Tanks, among others. Perhaps we can feature these in a "retro BYOND" segment one day. Featured games may, pending his approval, be attached to ACWraith's periodic review of BYOND happenings. Again, a lot is contingent on increased activity of developers of original games.

What's next?

This site update has, quite expectantly, taken forever and we've still got some things on the docket before moving to Flash & other things. For the next iteration, we plan on providing users an open-look into the hub review process as well as a way to coordinate discussion with the reviewers. We also have some new plans for increasing communication between game/library owners and their players/users.

More soon!

Jan 27 2011, 8:11 pm
"It's also more than likely a "rip" and will be pulled from the index before you can say "goku"."

^ I laughed, so hard.

Anyway, things are turning out great! Keep it up guys! [:
Jan 27 2011, 8:19 pm
I'm liking the sound of this

"It's also more than likely a "rip" and will be pulled from the index before you can say "goku"."

^ I laughed, so hard.

Lol same
Jan 27 2011, 8:22 pm
Did you just link to Double Rainbow?!
Jan 27 2011, 8:52 pm
Looks great, I just have a few nitpicks.

The Featured Game banner up at the top (now Fan Favorite) seems to rotate way too quickly. It's more of a random pick than a featured game. It should rotate something like every 24 hours in order to provide the maximum amount of exposure for the game it's supposed to be featuring. Since BYOND doesn't have as many submissions like Newgrounds a full 24 hours of being featured seems appropriate. The banner should also show server information.

As for the Top New Games and Featured Games listing, with a 1024x768 browser (which the site is optimized for) you have to scroll down before you even see the top of the actual listing. Since there's already a Featured Game (now Fan Favorite) banner that listing seems somewhat redundant. I think it should removed and the Top New Games listing be moved to the sidebar.

Here's a mockup of all my tweaks.
Jan 27 2011, 9:28 pm
Keep in mind that Fan Favorites and Featured Games are not the same thing. Fan Favorites are the most popular games (by member fan count); Featured Games are staff picks. The idea is that we can feature new games that may not have gotten much attention to help give them a bump. The banners show both Fan Favorites and Featured Games. Point taken about the duration-- that's not a bad idea.

The reason to show the new games and featured games at the top of the page is to give that page some variation, since the all-time popular games tend to remain fairly stagnant. I think putting that info off to the side makes it less obvious.

One thing I have considered is making the top + featured + all-time display (eg, page #1 of the current popularity sort) be its own page, namely the default "games" page / front-page for byond.com. The "popular" sort would then be a separate toggle that would list the popular games up-front (nothing up top), which would be consistent with the "date" and "players" sorts. I think this is probably more logical.
Jan 27 2011, 10:00 pm
I get what you mean by the games page becoming stagnant, but I think having the first 6 entries not actually being part of the listing is a bit overkill. Perhaps the first 2 or 4 games could be the Top New Games with the regular listing following. Off to the side could be a dedicated "Staff Picks" list which doesn't have to follow any sort of algorithm. You could put Tanks or Lexiconomy up there whenever you damn well please.

I really think you should reconsider sharing the Featured Game banner with games selected based on popularity. Wasn't the point of that banner to expose good games to more players? It seems to me like it would lessen the value of the banner if those featured games had to fight against games which are by definition already popular.
Jan 28 2011, 1:48 am
I still have some open issues on the Feature Tracker related to layouts.
Jan 28 2011, 2:10 am
They're called "fan-games", not "I wnat maor plaerz plox" games. People make them because they are fans. I'm a fan of Zelda and Megaman. It's always been my dream since I was little to make games based off of those games because I am a huge fan of them. I won't be losing that dream any time soon. I really think you guys look at fan games the wrong way.
Jan 28 2011, 2:35 am (Edited on Jan 28 2011, 2:45 am)
People around here have a poor outlook towards fan games because of the rip situation.
Jan 28 2011, 3:08 am (Edited on Jan 28 2011, 4:01 am)
I like the addition of the popular new games box and featured games box (and I'm not just saying that because two of my games are in the screenshot). I like it because I don't have time to play every new game and this gives me an easy way to see what relatively new games are worth playing. Is something similar for the developer page in the works? I imagine it could be useful for similar reasons.

As for the fan game situation, if BYOND had a number of high quality fan games then things would be different. Until BYOND has more quality games (whether they're fan games or not) the only reasonable option is to showcase the original games.
Jan 28 2011, 6:11 am
Forum_account wrote:
As for the fan game situation, if BYOND had a number of high quality fan games then things would be different. Until BYOND has more quality games (whether they're fan games or not) the only reasonable option is to showcase the original games.

I don't know about that. This all seems kind of counter productive on BYOND's part. I understand the need to get rid of rips. Which it seems that this new site upgrade has been doing pretty well. But to hide your most popular games in order to showcase you least popular, seems kind of stupid... No offense. That's not to say that original games aren't popular in some way, but they aren't nearly as popular as anime and fan games. But I have seen a lot of low quality original games being show cases that either don't get played or have very low player counts. Where as you have decent quality anime or fan games, which have huge player counts (showing that they are decent enough to keep a running player base of 100+ as opposed to most original games that get like 15+ on a good day(of course this is not all original games mind you, some are decently popular).

I also still do not like the fact that certain games slip through the cracks of this fan game hiding system, like Sunday the 19th. And I hate to bag on this game, because I do like it it is a good game. But it completely fits the description of a fan game, and yet it is still featured. This is, again, not fair to those other fan games who have to be hidden when this one is shown right on the first page. I mean jesus christ they even use a picture from the damn Saw movie in there hub and game!
http://www.byond.com/games/PandoraProductions/ SundayThe19th#tab=pics

I think what we need is a very specific list of what is constitutes a feature-able game and what constitutes a fan game or anime game. I personally want to know what exact criteria BYOND staff members need to look for in games that allows them to determine whether a game is a rip or not and whether it is original or not. I also feel that there should be a standard form, in which these people who determine what games should be listed as, have to fill out and send into the game owner so they know exactly what is the issue with there game and what points they need to work on. And they game maker should have the right and ability to speak with the person who tested their game in order to explain there side of the story to help the tester better understand the game and its workings in order to receive a proper status. I really don't think this is to much to ask for. But just getting a message with a generic cookie cutter response is not really good enough. I think this should be well organized and public so everyone knows exactly what they are getting into when trying to get there games listed and they know exactly what they can do to help there game get a better status.
Jan 28 2011, 6:31 am
Popularity doesn't have anything to do with quality. McDonald's may have served the most hamburgers but they certainly aren't the best. Quality isn't always a selling point.

It seems like Tom's goal is to raise awareness so that games don't slip through the cracks so easily. Most BYONDers know that there are plenty of anime games, letting them dominate the games listing doesn't help much to raise awareness. Showing games that you may have otherwise missed is more beneficial to the site's users and its outward appearance.
Jan 28 2011, 6:43 am
Forum_account wrote:
Popularity doesn't have anything to do with quality. McDonald's may have served the most hamburgers but they certainly aren't the best. Quality isn't always a selling point.

That's only a fair analogy if you're comparing McDonald's to other fast food restaurants. Otherwise, its like comparing Decadence to CoD. McDonald's "quality" is in service speed/accessibility and low prices.
As far as fan game vs original game quality goes, I'd bet most (or all) of you are comparing them to rips. If you exclude the rips, most of the fan games around here are better quality than most of the original games.
It seems like nobody around here can (or just won't) distinguish between rips and fan games, especially when it comes to this site change. Tom (admittedly) wasn't willing to suppress the rips with high player counts, so instead he just suppressed all fan games, while allowing those rips to be listed? That doesn't seem like the right decision any way you look at it.
Jan 28 2011, 6:49 am
Moussiffer wrote:
I think what we need is a very specific list of what is constitutes a feature-able game and what constitutes a fan game or anime game

Yes, this is what we are working on next (I alluded to it at the end of the post). We realize that Sunday the 19th is a borderline fan-game (I say "borderline" because it is NOT on the same level as a game whose entire content is based on a single existing franchise). We are not demoting it at the moment because we want to get this feedback system in place so that we can interact with the author(s).

The popular Anime games are not going to suffer from this change, nor we do need to showcase them further. They may make the system look appealing to players looking for Anime games, but they when they completely dominate the listings (as they have in the past), they only overshadow other games. They also make BYOND look like an Anime warehouse, which isn't what it is supposed to be.
Jan 28 2011, 6:56 am
Falacy wrote:
Tom (admittedly) wasn't willing to suppress the rips with high player counts, so instead he just suppressed all fan games, while allowing those rips to be listed? That doesn't seem like the right decision any way you look at it.

This is false and I don't care for you to be making up such claims.

When we initiated this system, we had 1000+ anime games in the system and couldn't manually go through them all, so what we did was mark all of them as "incomplete" except those with high player counts (at the time); basically as a quick filter. We then had those game owners resubmit so we could filter those on demand, as well as the high-count games initially left (as "pending", some moved to "fangame", some to "rejected" or "incomplete"). What we have left now are the anime "fangames". There is some debate as to whether some of these are "rips" still and we're working on that (I don't play or judge these games so that is not up to me to decide). It is not so simple as "one time based on a source" because if the original source was handed over, not in production anymore, heavily modified, etc, the game can stand on its own. Mostly we want to pare down that section and discourage future promotion of this sort of thing. If one or two games sneaks through the cracks, so what.

Jan 28 2011, 7:04 am (Edited on Jan 28 2011, 7:10 am)
Tom wrote:
This is false and I don't care for you to be making up such claims.

"Admittedly, a lot of the dbz/naruto games were left listed simply because they had a lot of players."

There is some debate as to whether some of these are "rips" still and we're working on that (I don't play or judge these games so that is not up to me to decide).

Then whose in charge?

It is not so simple as "one time based on a source" because if the original source was handed over, not in production anymore, heavily modified, etc, the game can stand on its own.

If a game was "handed over" and ended up with multiple copies on the hub. All of them should be suppressed except for one. Same goes if the original ended production. If the game was so heavily modified that you can't tell its a rip anymore, then this shouldn't really be an issue.
What happened to the system for games being "fans" of other games?

If one or two games sneaks through the cracks, so what.

When one or two sneaks through every day, then we end up back where we started. There are already several more rips being listed since the initial site changeover occurred.
Jan 28 2011, 7:10 am
Falacy wrote:
Tom wrote:
This is false and I don't care for you to be making up such claims.

"Admittedly, a lot of the dbz/naruto games were left listed simply because they had a lot of players."

It may be the case that in the first run we defaulted those games to "listed" instead of "pending" to avoid backlash, but we went back and reviewed them. if you look at that post where I made that quote you'll see that some have been "rejected", the rest moved to "fangame"

But that isn't the problem I have with your statement. You said "so instead he just suppressed all fan games, while allowing those rips to be listed" which is not true at all-- it's the whole point of this post. We ARE listing fangames. The only games that are suppressed are those that have been rejected by the system. Anyone is free to contact us for relisting and we've acted on this a number of times. Trust me, if an original game that gets played got delisted, we've heard about it.

Then whose in charge?

Right now Teka123 is responsible for the majority of play-testing.

If a game was "handed over" and ended up with multiple copies on the hub. All of them should be suppressed except the most popular. Same goes if the original ended production. If the game was so heavily modified that you can't tell its a rip anymore, then this shouldn't really be an issue.

Yes, and I think that's what we've done. On your post you listed a few examples and some of them are now rejected; the others are in flux because there is some debate as to their status. Again, I don't consider it a huge deal because the rip situation is mostly under control. Outside of the original seeding, which was just a filter, we are not factoring in player count; one of the GOA clones was enormously popular and rejected, for instance.
Jan 28 2011, 7:44 am
This discussion is going nowhere productive. Falacy, I think you'll agree that the system is better off now than it was before. We had a lot of fangames and rips in the system so filtering through them is not a trivial process. If you see new rips appearing, then that means our reviewer is making mistakes since those items are individually checked. Shortly you will have access to a history of submissions and listings so you will be able to see who does what and leave feedback.

For the "game linking", I think it's a good idea, but it isn't so obvious to set up in a way that will be used. That'll require some more thought and right now we have our hands full.
Jan 28 2011, 9:23 am
I meant to ask this earlier and I forgot: Can you track how people use the site to see how effective the new site features are? I'm glad you're making these kinds of changes because my games have certainly gotten more downloads lately, though it's hard to say that's due to these changes. It would be nice to quantify the difference you're making.
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